# Doctor brands his initials into patient's liver "w/ argon gas": how? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 25, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131 "2013-12-25T05:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/1 "2013-12-25T05:56:28Z")
See subject. [Article](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gLj87YXnSHrjKd1bNJAv1cn2anzw?docId=cc50708c-d958-4ef8-bdf7-2b774a75f9ab&hl=en) doesn’t explain how it’s done. Any ideas? Also, Merry Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/2 "2013-12-25T06:18:55Z")
According to this book, it’s used with electrocautery to seal blood vessels. So the mention of argon here is a bit of a red herring. I’m guessing he could’ve done the same thing with standard electrocautery. Argon gas coagulation: [Minimally Invasive Uro-Oncologic Surgery - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=eC_-w7wR4ekC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=argon+seal+blood+vessels&source=bl&ots=AQTdYI-HXX&sig=RLS_RKXZx8Urn6qSQrLVT8Xyy8c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hXe6UuzdJoWQyAGbmICADg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=argon%20seal%20blood%20vessels&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/3 "2013-12-25T15:28:43Z")
Back in Kentucky, we just uses [an old-fashioned branding iron](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/lawsuit-doctor-branded-patients-uterus) for this job. ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/4 "2013-12-25T17:10:35Z")
How? What about why:confused: ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/5 "2013-12-25T17:20:41Z")
It’s an argon plasma beam. [Argon plasma coagulation - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argon_plasma_coagulation) ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/6 "2013-12-25T17:28:54Z")
I imagine that his true answer to the question - “Why?” Will be, “Because I could.” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/7 "2013-12-25T17:47:37Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#): > > How? > > What about why:confused: In case of nonpayment, the doctor will have an easier time repo-ing. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/8 "2013-12-26T13:18:57Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#): > > How? > > What about why:confused: There was a case a few years ago where a surgeon who was removing a woman’s uterus had branded it with the initials of his medical school. There was a lawsuit, and his defense was that he needed to brand it before removal with some sort of mark to identify orientation, and the shapes of those initials were such that they uniquely identified the organ’s front/back, left/right, and top/bottom. Ah yes, [here’s the case.](http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/01/57442) Of course, then there’s [this other case,](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/14/doctor-sued-for-branding-patients-uterus/) where the uterus was branded more elaborately and for less clear reasons. Likewise, in the OP’s case, since the liver was apparently not removed (the initials were discovered during a subsequent surgery), I can’t think of a reason to deliberately mark the liver. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/9 "2013-12-26T14:33:26Z")
I wonder whether the argon part is a reference to a cryosurgical probe. One way of getting a suitably cold instrument tip is to use expanding argon gas inside the probe. I can imagine that a cryoprobe tip would trivially act as a brand, and it would take a matter of moments to inscribe a set of initials on an organ with one. That the particular probe used was an argon cooled device (as opposed to one cooled with liquid nitrogen, or a few other mechanisms) may have led to the reported use of argon. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/10 "2013-12-26T14:58:37Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > There was a case a few years ago where a surgeon who was removing a woman’s uterus had branded it with the initials of his medical school. There was a lawsuit, and his defense was that he needed to brand it before removal with some sort of mark to identify orientation, and the shapes of those initials were such that they uniquely identified the organ’s front/back, left/right, and top/bottom. > > Ah yes, [here’s the case.](http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/01/57442) That’s a fucking ridiculous lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/11 "2013-12-26T17:41:57Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > That’s a fucking ridiculous lawsuit. I agree … how was it discovered by the previous owner that it had been branded? And if the woman had not discovered it was branded, who the fuck cares? Though I admit I should have asked my doc to brand mine and put it in a bottle for me to see while I was waiting to be released, that would be freaking cool! I think next thing I get removed [probably the gallbladder] I will ask him to brand and let me see before they dispose of it 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/12 "2013-12-26T17:52:04Z")
Jeez, if this keeps up, how much longer before there’s product placement…? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/13 "2013-12-27T13:04:25Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I agree … how was it discovered by the previous owner that it had been branded? And if the woman had not discovered it was branded, who the fuck cares? Uh huh. So someone has their reproductive organs removed, ending absolutely any chance of reproduction. And the surgeon treats it like a high school prank. If you needed to have your testicles amputated, and you found out the surgeons used them for a golf ballx afterwards, would you be equally complacent? Humans have a deep psychological attachment to their body parts, especially when it terminates their reproductive life. The idea that anybody thinks it’s a joke or a chance for some graffiti work and treats the sexual organs disrespectfully is highly distressing. Why you would think it doesn’t matter if the patient never finds out mystifies me. That is exactly equivalent to saying it would be all right if the surgeon raped the woman while she was unconscious. So long as she had not discovered she was raped, who gives a fuck. Right? Using someones body in a manner that they did not consent to, while they are unconscious, and that would find distressing if they were awake, is still a crime whether they find out about it or not. The fact that someone is unconscious when you abuse their reproductive organs for your amusement doesn’t make the act acceptable. It makes it worse. If the act of branding has some legitimate medical purpose, fine. If these surgeons are simply tatooing someone’s body without their consent because they have access to them unconscious during a very traumatic and life threatening situation, they should be de-registered and sued for large sums. For reasons I would have thought were obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/14 "2013-12-27T13:59:44Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Why you would think it doesn’t matter if the patient never finds out mystifies me. That is exactly equivalent to saying it would be all right if the surgeon raped the woman while she was unconscious. No, it isn’t. Nobody who thinks this isn’t mentally subnormal. Kindly stop cheapening real, actual rape with shitty metaphors. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/15 "2013-12-27T14:03:49Z")
What **Blake** said. The law guards bodily integrity very jealously. When you sign a consent form for surgery, you’re only giving consent for what’s medically necessary, not to give the surgeon carte blanche to treat your body as his personal plaything. A surgeon who wilfully exceeds the scope of the consent for non-medical reasons may well be committing an assault, even if the patient doesn’t know about it. An unconscious person undergoing medical treatment is completely helpless and is entitled to be treated with dignity, particularly because they are completely helpless and trusting in the professionalism of the doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/16 "2013-12-27T15:38:43Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > There was a case a few years ago where a surgeon who was removing a woman’s uterus had branded it with the initials of his medical school. There was a lawsuit, and his defense was that he needed to brand it before removal with some sort of mark to identify orientation, and the shapes of those initials were such that they uniquely identified the organ’s front/back, left/right, and top/bottom. The only person who’d need to orient the uterus after hysterectomy would be the pathologist. There are typically ways to orient it anatomically without markings or stitches\*, and I’ve never seen one come into the pathology lab with brandings of any kind. Suing over the “UK” brand was over the top, but the surgeon really didn’t have a good defense for what he did. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/17 "2013-12-27T16:43:30Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s an argon plasma beam. It’s a\*\* 1920’s\*\* argon plasma beam. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/18 "2013-12-27T16:48:00Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > No, it isn’t. Nobody who thinks this isn’t mentally subnormal. Kindly stop cheapening real, actual rape with shitty metaphors. It wasn’t “real, actual rape”, it was a hypothetical. Your stance on this is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/19 "2013-12-27T17:45:56Z")
Imagine if a doctor branded something more symbolic, like a religious symbol, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131/20 "2013-12-27T17:49:13Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > If you needed to have your testicles amputated, and you found out the surgeons used them for a golf ballx afterwards, would you be equally complacent? Yes. Not that I think the doctor used good judgment, but a lawsuit over it is ridiculous. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-brands-his-initials-into-patients-liver-w-argon-gas-how/677131.md?page=2)