# Doctor of law in the U.S. (etiquette) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 30, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088 "2016-05-30T14:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/21 "2016-05-30T21:41:31Z")
The law and bar associations permit lawyers holding J.D. or S.J.D. degrees to call themselves “Doctor,” so long as they are not trying to falsely imply some other kind of expertise or licensing—such as medical. However the only lawyers I have seen who are routinely referred to with the prefix “Dr.” are patent lawyers who hold Ph.D. degrees in a scientific field in addition to their law degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/22 "2016-05-30T21:55:21Z")
While we’re on the subject, it may be worth clarifying that both the courtesy title of “Doctor” for physicians and the usage of “doctor” as a synonym for physician predate the invention and certainly the popularity of the _Medicinae Doctor_ degree as the qualification for medical practice and continue to be used in countries for which the qualifying degree is not and never has been a doctorate (such as the United Kingdom). The use of “doctor” to refer to a physician is separate from and much older than the modern system of academic degrees, and in fact predates most formal systems of medical training. It is nearly as old as the use of “doctor” to refer to an academic scholar, both of which date to the 1300s. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/23 "2016-05-30T22:20:51Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > To actually answer the question, the traditional rule found in 20th century American etiquette guides by the likes of Emily Post and Judith “Miss Manners” Martin is that _only_ physicians receive the courtesy title of “Doctor” in social (nonprofessional) settings…" IIRC members of the clergy were also traditionally allowed to use “Doctor” in social settings if they had the requisite degree. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/24 "2016-05-30T22:40:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Acsenray** : > > The law and bar associations permit lawyers holding J.D. or S.J.D. degrees to call themselves “Doctor,” so long as they are not trying to falsely imply some other kind of expertise or licensing—such as medical. Sure, but they also permit ordinary folks with no particular education whatsoever to call themselves that, with the same proviso against fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/25 "2016-05-31T00:11:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, but they also permit ordinary folks with no particular education whatsoever to call themselves that, with the same proviso against fraud. So what? The question is about lawyers, and authorities that are relevant to lawyers have explicitly spoken on this issue (such as ABA Informal Opinion 1152 (1970)). So it is relevant to the question, and it is relevant in the context of my full comment. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/26 "2016-05-31T00:23:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The law and bar associations permit lawyers holding J.D. or S.J.D. degrees to call themselves “Doctor,” so long as they are not trying to falsely imply some other kind of expertise or licensing—such as medical. > > However the only lawyers I have seen who are routinely referred to with the prefix “Dr.” are patent lawyers who hold Ph.D. degrees in a scientific field in addition to their law degrees. Lawyers with SJDs do go by “Doctor” as it is a proper earned terminal degree and often teach in academia. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/27 "2016-05-31T00:26:11Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Lawyers with SJDs do go by “Doctor” as it is a proper earned terminal degree and often teach in academia. Perhaps it happens, but as I said, it’s not a situation that I’ve encountered routinely. I knew a small number of S.J.D.-holding law professors and they didn’t go by “doctor.” In any case, my understanding is that these days, the vast majority of S.J.D. degrees are honorary rather than “earned.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/28 "2016-05-31T01:27:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In any case, my understanding is that these days, the vast majority of S.J.D. degrees are honorary rather than “earned.” My understanding is that SJD is a (rare) earned degree while LL.D is an honorary degree. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/29 "2016-05-31T02:03:34Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > There actually is a real law firm with that name (different spelling): > > [http://www.dewey-cheatham-howe.com](http://www.dewey-cheatham-howe.com) > > Other than that, I didn’t mean to insult anybody. Sorry. I think you got it right the second time – yes, that does seem to be a parody web site. > [@Dewey Cheatham & Howe web site on Divorce](#): > > Divorce can be a painful experience, especially for your soon-to-be former spouse if you hire Dewey Cheatham & Howe. When you want it as nasty as possible, you want us. We stay away from the amicable divorces because it’s harder to inflate our billing. > [@DC&H on Personal Injury](#): > > Today we have advanced and refined Dickie’s methods. We no longer chase ambulances. Instead we keep EMS workers on retainer. This helps us get to our clients quickly and provide you with immediate legal advice, making sure you get the best treatment to increase the value of your personal injury case. > > In many cases we can direct our car and motorcycle accidents to doctors who do shoddy work, thus opening the door to double the potential recovery through medical malpractice claims. > [@DC&H on Criminal Defense](#): > > At Dewey Cheatham & Howe, we have the experience to truly understand and sympathize with our criminal defense clients. We have defended crimes as diverse as arson, drug smuggling, grand larceny and rape. We’ve even committed most of them. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/30 "2016-05-31T02:08:46Z")
[hijack] This reminds me of a conundrum I’ve wondered about from time to time – What is the history of the exclamation “And how!” to mean a strongly affirmative response to a Yes/No question? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/31 "2016-05-31T02:21:33Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > [hijack] > > This reminds me of a conundrum I’ve wondered about from time to time – What is the history of the exclamation “And how!” to mean a strongly affirmative response to a Yes/No question? > > [/hijack] There was a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=85067) on this. We got it directly from German. But that just punts the question back in time to “why did the Germans start using it?” I’ve never seen an answer to that. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/32 "2016-05-31T08:21:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > My law school offered at one point to exchange my LL.B for a J.D. I can’t imagine caring to do that. So did mine, and the offer still stands. But I’m not going to exchange my LL.B. for a J.D.–if nothing else, my LL.B. gives me more letters after my name. 😃 I did study under a few S.J.D.s, and they were never referred to as “Doctor So-and-so.” Commonly, they were “Professor So-and-so,” or “Mr./Ms. So-and-so.” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/33 "2016-05-31T11:06:01Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > AFAIK, an individual who graduates from law school in the U.S. receives a Juris Doctor (J.D.) which is, of course, Latin for: Doctor of law. I wonder if a law school graduate is ever addressed as “Doctor”, for instance in a formal setting and/or when you want to be courteous and extra polite. Let’s say Bill Cheatem, Esq., J.D., is invited to a social function at the local Rotary Club where he is introduced to John Doe, M.D. (a cardiologist) and Jane Roe (the director of the local library who holds a Ph.D. in comparative late-medieval Mongolian literature). Bill, this is John and Jane; John and Jane, Bill. That’s what I’d do/have done. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/34 "2016-05-31T13:05:03Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > While we’re on the subject, it may be worth clarifying that both the courtesy title of “Doctor” for physicians and the usage of “doctor” as a synonym for physician predate the invention and certainly the popularity of the _Medicinae Doctor_ degree as the qualification for medical practice and continue to be used in countries for which the qualifying degree is not and never has been a doctorate (such as the United Kingdom). The use of “doctor” to refer to a physician is separate from and much older than the modern system of academic degrees, and in fact predates most formal systems of medical training. It is nearly as old as the use of “doctor” to refer to an academic scholar, both of which date to the 1300s. Right. Chaucer used the term to refer to a physician far before the development of the modern MD degree. [QUOTE=Geoffrey Chaucer, 14th century, emphasis mine] With us ther was a **doctour** of phisik; In al this world ne was the noon hym lik, To speke of phisik and of surgerye For he was grounded in astronomye. He kepte his pacient a ful greet deel In houres by his magyk natureel. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/35 "2016-05-31T13:08:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > However the only lawyers I have seen who are routinely referred to with the prefix “Dr.” are patent lawyers who hold Ph.D. degrees in a scientific field in addition to their law degrees. This. I’ve been been around lawyers my whole life (child and sibling of lawyers, longtime IT person at large law firms). I’ve never heard a lawyer use “Dr.,” with the exception of some patent lawyers. It’s not unusual for patent lawyers to have a PhD in some technical or scientific field, or even an MD (we’ve got a few of those at my firm). Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/36 "2016-05-31T13:17:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, but they also permit ordinary folks with no particular education whatsoever to call themselves that, with the same proviso against fraud. Are there any cases in the modern world, other than physicians in countries where the standard medical degree is not a doctorate, where a person can receive general social recognition as a “doctor” without holding a formal doctoral degree from a university? I’m imagining that there might be a sport out there where high-scoring players are commonly addressed by their fellow players as “doctor”, or something of that nature. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/37 "2016-05-31T13:23:42Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Are there any cases in the modern world, other than physicians in countries where the standard medical degree is not a doctorate, where a person can receive general social recognition as a “doctor” without holding a formal doctoral degree from a university? I’m imagining that there might be a sport out there where high-scoring players are commonly addressed by their fellow players as “doctor”, or something of that nature. Well, there’s the case of Malcolm John “Mac” Rebennack, aka Dr John. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/38 "2016-05-31T13:30:27Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Are there any cases in the modern world, other than physicians in countries where the standard medical degree is not a doctorate, where a person can receive general social recognition as a “doctor” without holding a formal doctoral degree from a university? In Australia, vets and dentists are commonly addressed as “doctor”. Nowadays a lot of universities award professional doctorates to graduates in veterinary surgery or dentistry, but this is a recent development and most of the vets and dentists being addressed as “doctor” don’t have doctorates. ---
**Author:** ![Personal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Personal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Personal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/39 "2016-05-31T13:46:54Z")
The solicitations and alumni mailings that I receive from the university are addressed to Dr. Personal, but those received from the law school itself are addressed to Mr. Personal. That’s the only time I’ve seen it. That may be a marketing thing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/40 "2016-05-31T13:51:05Z")
Vets and dentists are “Doctor” in the States, too, but I don’t know what kind of degrees they have. And you’ll occasionally see a celebrity who is nicknamed “Doctor So-and-so”, and most of them have never earned a doctoral degree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088.md?page=3)