# Doctor of law in the U.S. (etiquette) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 30, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088 "2016-05-30T14:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/41 "2016-05-31T14:10:34Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Are there any cases in the modern world, other than physicians in countries where the standard medical degree is not a doctorate, where a person can receive general social recognition as a “doctor” without holding a formal doctoral degree from a university? I’m imagining that there might be a sport out there where high-scoring players are commonly addressed by their fellow players as “doctor”, or something of that nature. In Germany, an individual who graduates from medical school (or to be more precise: who has taken the medical state exam) has to complete a dissertation, like any other scientist, in order to be awarded a doctorate (_“Dr. med._”). The majority of physicians in Germany are \*Dr. med.\*s, but sure enough not everyone (especially not in the Eastern part of the country). However, the medical doctorate has traditionally been the easiest to obtain to the point where it had become a mere formality (unlike Ph.D.s in other scientific fields which take many years of hard, dedicated scientific work). In my childhood, our first family physician didn’t have the doctor title, but she was still referred to as “Dr. A.” ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/42 "2016-05-31T14:16:44Z")
Never heard of a lawyer who was not an MD/DO called a doctor - even if they had an LLM. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/43 "2016-05-31T15:04:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Vets and dentists are “Doctor” in the States, too, but I don’t know what kind of degrees they have. First professional degree just like an MD, JD, Psych.D, Pharm.D, DC, DO, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/44 "2016-05-31T15:10:06Z")
Here’s an example of a U.S. patent lawyer using the title “Dr.”— [Meet Our Team | Dilworth IP](http://www.dilworthip.com/people/anthony-d-sabatelli-ph-d) > [@](#): > > Partner > > Anthony D. Sabatelli is an experienced patent practitioner and former biotech executive and research scientist, who provides insightful, practical, and business-oriented service to his clients. Although his primary focus is on biotechnology and the pharmaceutical industry, he has had broad experience across many areas of the chemical field including formulations and polymers. **Dr. Sabatelli** learned early on in his career that the successful patent practitioner must be an “Exclusivity Attorney” adept at understanding the complex interplay of patent, regulatory, and product life-cycle issues. He is versed in the Hatch-Waxman and regulatory laws relevant to pharmaceutical practice. > [@Chronos](#): > > Vets and dentists are “Doctor” in the States, too, but I don’t know what kind of degrees they have. Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (D.V.M.) Doctor of Dental Surgery (D.D.S.) Doctor of Dental Medicine (D.M.D.) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/45 "2016-05-31T15:12:16Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > First professional degree just like an MD, JD, Psych.D, Pharm.D, DC, DO, etc. With veterinarians in the US there is an interesting twist. Historically schools came up with their own degree titles. Then, all veterinary colleges met to discuss uniformity, deciding on awarding a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (DVM) degree. A lone holdout to the agreement was The University of Pennsylvania, that to this day awards its degree in their original Latin form of Veterinariae Medicinae Doctoris (VMD). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/46 "2016-05-31T15:43:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Here’s an example of a U.S. patent lawyer using the title “Dr.” And he apparently holds a PhD. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/47 "2016-05-31T16:26:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And he apparently holds a PhD. Which is exactly the situation I described. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/48 "2016-06-01T20:29:27Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > With veterinarians in the US there is an interesting twist. Historically schools came up with their own degree titles. Then, all veterinary colleges met to discuss uniformity, deciding on awarding a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (DVM) degree. > > A lone holdout to the agreement was The University of Pennsylvania, that to this day awards its degree in their original Latin form of Veterinariae Medicinae Doctoris (VMD). I think most schools now use the “English” form for most degrees – a BS rather than an SB. Harvard (though not Yale) is still a holdout awarding a “Scientiae Baccalaureus” rather than a “Bachelor of Science”. But I’ve never heard of any university in the US that awards a DPh or a DM instead of a PhD or MD. I know less about law schools, but I’ve never seen a DJ (and it’s unlikely it would be used given it’s other meaning), but I have seen some DJur degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/49 "2016-06-01T20:54:56Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Right. Chaucer used the term to refer to a physician far before the development of the modern MD degree. Nitpick: Chaucer was making a distinction that you are not making. A “doctour of physic” is more than someone who practices medicine. It is someone who is qualified to teach medicine and the philosophy of medicine. For Chaucer’s readers, it connotes age and status as well as profession, and is not the same as a modern M.D. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/50 "2016-06-01T21:28:25Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Are there any cases in the modern world, other than physicians in countries where the standard medical degree is not a doctorate, where a person can receive general social recognition as a “doctor” without holding a formal doctoral degree from a university? I’m imagining that there might be a sport out there where high-scoring players are commonly addressed by their fellow players as “doctor”, or something of that nature. Nobody’s mentioned Dr. J? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/51 "2016-06-01T22:18:12Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Nobody’s mentioned Dr. J? Thanks for mentioning her, but despite her degree I generally refer to Mrs. J. as “Honey Bun” or a similar honorific. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/52 "2016-06-02T03:04:20Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I’m imagining that there might be a sport out there where high-scoring players are commonly addressed by their fellow players as “doctor”, or something of that nature. [Valentino Rossi.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentino_Rossi#Nicknames) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/53 "2016-06-02T03:35:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > [Valentino Rossi.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentino_Rossi#Nicknames) Thanks, but these seem to be cases where individual players have adopted a “Doctor” nickname. I was thinking more of a case where players are more or less automatically given the title of “doctor” after reaching certain performance scores or (in sports with discrete ranks) reaching a certain rank. For example, I could imagine a Karate association issuing a formal style guide suggesting that all participants with a rank of 5th _dan_ and above be addressed as “sensei doctor”, participants from 2nd dan to 4th dan be addressed as “master sensei”, and participants with a rank of 1st dan be simply addressed as “sensei”. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/54 "2016-06-02T20:31:19Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Nobody’s mentioned Dr. J? What are you implying? The good Doctor has a PhD. > [@](#): > > Erving also holds an honorary doctorate from the University of Massachusetts Amherst > **[Julius Erving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Erving)** > > Julius Winfield Erving II (born February 22, 1950), commonly known by the nickname Dr. J, is an American former professional basketball player. Erving helped legitimize the American Basketball Association (ABA), and he was the best-known player in that league when it merged into the National Basketball Association (NBA) after the 1975–1976 season. > Erving won three championships, four Most Valuable Player awards and three scoring titles with the ABA's Virginia Squires and New York Nets (now th... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/55 "2016-06-02T23:52:20Z")
Honorary doctorates aren’t PhDs. ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/56 "2016-06-03T01:34:37Z")
I can only recall one example of a JD being called “doctor”. Here in Australia, the base legal degree, held by most practitioners, is the LL.B. When I was at Uni lo these many moons ago, even the academics tended not to have PhDs (although that has changed now). Enter an American academic who had a JD, and who insisted on being called “Doctor”. I am confident he was exploiting the mere difference of nomenclature that applied for essentially the same level of qualification. He was a …curious… character. Turns out he had a mistress unbeknownst to his wife. The mistress won a fortune in the lottery, and offered to take the good “doctor” away from it all. So he abandoned his family and his job (in the middle of marking season) and disappeared into the distance, never to be heard from again. Not one of the best hire’s the Uni ever made. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088/57 "2016-06-03T06:24:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Honorary doctorates aren’t PhDs. But just for shits and giggles, quite a few honorary doctorates are doctorates of laws. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-of-law-in-the-u-s-etiquette/756088.md?page=2)