# Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies, disney-hulu\ **Created:** [December 16, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171 "2021-12-16T19:52:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2022, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/61 "2022-06-23T09:05:57Z")
I agree with all of this. At the end, I didn’t feel like I actually know anything about America Chavez as a character. She was a plot device. And I suspect they’ll try to fit Ms. Marvel into the Young Avengers somehow too, which isn’t a horrible Idea. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2022, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/62 "2022-06-23T15:36:43Z")
She is just introduced here. No question the character is to be developed as current heroes are dispatched one way or the other. Missing in the references to the streaming show products was glaringly Loki, Kang, and that show’s version of the multiverse and its current state. Yes I know Kang is to be featured in the next Antman, and there is an S2 for Loki coming, but how do the incursions and collisions with Chavez being able to travel between (and the place the good book was) mesh with Kang’s control of multiverses, and the space that was outside of it all in that show? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2022, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/63 "2022-06-24T16:29:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > how do the incursions and collisions with Chavez being able to travel between (and the place the good book was) mesh with Kang’s control of multiverses, and the space that was outside of it all in that show? Easily. First there was a multiverse that gave rise to multiple Kangs. Then there wasn’t a multiverse when the Kang that Loki first met was in control, because he “pruned” all the other universes. Now there’s always been one. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/64 "2022-06-26T00:29:10Z")
Finally caught up with this on Disney+. I enjoyed the hell out of it. I like how it followed up on _WandaVision_, but also recontextualized it - the ending of _WandaVision_ got some criticism for the way the narrative seemed to be letting Wanda off the hook, morally, for what she did to Westview, but this movie reeled that _all_ the way back in. I was struck, in particular, by the way everyone in the film was unanimous on “dreamwalking” - taking over someone’s body and controlling their actions - being just totally, unquestionably evil. I do think I see a way they could both bring her back, and redeem her as a hero: send her to Hell. This movie just established “souls of the damned” are a thing, and we’ve seen one afterlife in the Moonknight series. Wanda may have died making a heroic sacrifice, but she still killed a _lot_ of people, and she probably pissed off that C’thuun demon guy who carved the evil magic on the walls of that temple. At some point in a future movie, some hero has to break into Hell for Reasons, and while they’re there, they run into Wanda, who ends up escaping with them, and presto - back alive, and “was in literal Hell” is a pretty good way to justify that she’s paid for her crimes. I’m guessing the Book of Vishanti that was destroyed was a copy, just like the copy of the Darkhold that Wang’s apprentice destroyed, and that the book will show up again later on. Actually, I’m guessing the same about the Darkhold - Wanda may have destroyed the temple and all copies, but the original author may still be around, and interested in doing a rewrite. Calling the MCU “616” was weird. Anyone who’s nerd enough to recognize the reference is nerd enough to be bothered that they got it wrong. Anyway, my headcanon there is that when Christine was doing the calculation to determine which universe Stephen was from, she forgot to carry a one, and got 616 by mistake. Speaking of nerd references, I think I found the deepest cut I’ve ever seen in a Marvel movie. Early on in the film, when Strange and America are fleeing from Wanda, she throws a hex bold at him and burns a hole in his cloak before they escape through a portal. When they’re on the other side, he notices the hole and says he’ll get it patched. I figure this would be a plot point - maybe at some point there’s two Stranges, and they know which one to shoot because his cloak isn’t burned or something. But, that never happens. The hole isn’t mentioned again, and at the end of the film, you can see that there’s a patch sewn on it. Seemed weird to me, like it was setting something up that got cut, or something. Also early in the movie, there’s a student at Kamar Taj who’s a big green ox person. I didn’t recognize him, but figured it had to be some obscure character from the comics. So I Googled him. He is, indeed, a minor character from the Dr. Strange comics: Rintrah, an apprentice sorcerer who in his first appearance… helped Dr. Strange repair his cloak of levitation. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/65 "2022-06-26T00:39:09Z")
Wow, I didn’t even think of that! Nice work! ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/66 "2022-06-26T01:25:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Also early in the movie, there’s a student at Kamar Taj who’s a big green ox person. I didn’t recognize him, but figured it had to be some obscure character from the comics. So I Googled him. He is, indeed, a minor character from the Dr. Strange comics: Rintrah, an apprentice sorcerer who in his first appearance… helped Dr. Strange repair his cloak of levitation. Was supposed to have a much larger part in the movie, but it was cut. He even has an action figure. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/67 "2022-06-26T03:22:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Calling the MCU “616” was weird. Anyone who’s nerd enough to recognize the reference is nerd enough to be bothered that they got it wrong. Ms. Marvel agrees with you. > **[Ms. Marvel Star Says the MCU Is NOT the 616 Universe, Despite Kevin Feige's...](https://www.cbr.com/ms-marvel-iman-vellani-mcu-not-616-universe/)** > > Ms. Marvel star Iman Vellani says she disagrees with Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige over the Marvel Cinematic Universe being Earth-616. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/68 "2022-06-26T03:31:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Calling the MCU “616” was weird. Anyone who’s nerd enough to recognize the reference is nerd enough to be bothered that they got it wrong. Anyway, my headcanon there is that when Christine was doing the calculation to determine which universe Stephen was from, she forgot to carry a one, and got 616 by mistake. It’s funny, that bothered me for a minute, but then I wondered if a different universe would simply have a different numbering scheme. The numbers we know aren’t necessarily universal constants. Anyway, I just watched it, and I enjoyed the hell out of it. The trippy effects alone made it worthwhile, but I did appreciate the plot as well, and I liked seeing the continuation of the WandaVision story. Overall an excellent movie. Also: bonus points for Bruce Campbell enjoying the hell out of himself in the second stinger. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/69 "2022-06-26T03:48:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Calling the MCU “616” was weird. One thing I was hoping that there would at least be an off-hand quip about: If universe 838 is the one where people are going around and cataloging universes, why is it not “universe 1”? 838 is a perverse number to start the count at. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/70 "2022-06-26T04:05:34Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Also: bonus points for Bruce Campbell enjoying the hell out of himself in the second stinger. He does love a good “possessed hand” gag. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/71 "2022-06-26T05:22:26Z")
Nitpick…IMHC (In my head canon) the ‘Sacred timeline’ is a rope and each thread is a timeline that fits what He Who Survives wanted it to be. So there is a multiverse but its a very tight thing…now of course there’s all kinds of nutty ones. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/72 "2022-06-26T19:02:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Calling the MCU “616” was weird. Anyone who’s nerd enough to recognize the reference is nerd enough to be bothered that they got it wrong. I will humbly suggest that this is not true, and offer as evidence: myself. I know what is meant by “616,” and that using it to refer to the MCU doesn’t make a lot of sense. But I also find Marvel’s obsession with giving every disparate “What If?” issue, random parallel universe, film series, parody, and single-panel dream sequence its own unique multi-digit number to be immensely silly. DC had a whole big multi-issue crossover event to get rid of all of their multiple universes, and they only had a few that really mattered (and theirs were conveniently single digits). Marvel seems to revel in adding new numbers at every opportunity, and I just can’t take it too seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/73 "2022-06-26T19:54:23Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > I will humbly suggest that this is not true, and offer as evidence: myself. It was a generalization, and obviously isn’t going to be 100% true in all circumstances. If you prefer, change it to “anyone who cares is going to be bothered by it.” ---
**Author:** ![smokey78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@smokey78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smokey78)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/74 "2022-06-26T20:16:26Z")
Just got to watch this weekend. I was really mulling over watching in theatre with these rising prices, I didn’t even know it would release onto Disney Plus less than 2 months since release whew. The ending with Scarlet Witch did seem like a copout/copycat? I 'm actually reminded of the ending to Wonder Woman’s 1984 haha. I know some folks were joking about 616, I grew up reading comics and knew 616 was the original verse but to this day I had no idea why its called 616! Really interesting was I watched with subtitiles on tv and they called the Illumunaiti verse as 8232? My mom could barely keep up with the verses so I had to keep explaining to her who was where/what. I watched unspoilered so didn’t know they would go that route with Wanda, It was a jolt to see Dr Strange seeking help from her and then her (or as Scarlet Witch) well thanks for telling me I’ll go kill America for her powers! I did see Wandavision so I’m wondering if folks who had just seen the Avengers films wonder why she was so obsessed with her kids but not in seeking Vision. (Cuz over there they established Wanda can’t resurrect anyone from the dead) ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/75 "2022-06-26T20:44:11Z")
> [@smokey78](#): > > I did see Wandavision so I’m wondering if folks who had just seen the Avengers films wonder why she was so obsessed with her kids but not in seeking Vision. (Cuz over there they established Wanda can’t resurrect anyone from the dead) I’ve seen WandaVision and I still have issues with that line of reasoning. If the whole point of mulit-verse is everything exists, why couldn’t she just find a nice universe where Vision didn’t die but Wanda did? Meh, I guess super sentient robots aren’t that dumb, but it would at least be more plausible than finding a universe where her _fictional_ children are real. How is that supposed to work? She might as well find a soothing universe with winnie the pooh and tigger too. Also, also, why didn’t America shift to a universe where Wanda didn’t exist? Like super dead or never conceived. With infinite universes she should have been able to pick one with a “good” dr. strange and NO Wanda. But as I understand it, she happens to pick the one where Wanda lives with her fictional kids? I just could not. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/76 "2022-06-26T21:10:51Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I’ve seen WandaVision and I still have issues with that line of reasoning. If the whole point of mulit-verse is everything exists, why couldn’t she just find a nice universe where Vision didn’t die but Wanda did? Meh, I guess super sentient robots aren’t that dumb, but it would at least be more plausible than finding a universe where her _fictional_ children are real. How is that supposed to work? She might as well find a soothing universe with winnie the pooh and tigger too. Strictly speaking, in the Marvel multiverse, there is absolutely a universe where Winnie the Pooh is real. “Fictional character in one universe, real character in another,” is a pretty common trope. The real world is also supposed to be a part of the multiverse, so the idea of meeting fictional characters by travelling realities is kind of baked in. But in this specific case, its pretty easy to justify Wanda magicking up versions of her real kids from alternate dimensions. The film establishes that dreams are actually psychic connections with our alternative selves. So, in _WandaVision_, when Wanda was subconsciously created her kids, she drew on dreams she’d had about being a mother, which were actually windows into her alternate lives. In this movie, she’s trying to track down one of the realities where those dreams came from, so she can get “her” kids back. > [@sachertorte](#): > > Also, also, why didn’t America shift to a universe where Wanda didn’t exist? Like super dead or never conceived. With infinite universes she should have been able to pick one with a “good” dr. strange and NO Wanda. But as I understand it, she happens to pick the one where Wanda lives with her fictional kids? Well, until the very end, America didn’t have any control over her powers, so she couldn’t have done that even if she’d known it would help, which I think she also didn’t learn until pretty close to the end of the movie. But I don’t think it would have mattered - Wanda only started attacking America through her alters after she openly revealed herself as the villain and attacked Kamar-Taj. Before that, she was sending demons after her, who presumably have their own way of moving between realities. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/77 "2022-06-26T21:32:18Z")
Wait, why can’t the MCU be universe 616? I thought that was the main universe in the comics? Anyway I really disliked this movie. Didn’t care about America, didn’t buy Wanda (but the Darkhold! is lame), didn’t care about Strange’s love life, the cameos didn’t do anything for me, especially since the trailer gave away Professor X. Definitely in the bottom 25%. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/78 "2022-06-26T21:50:58Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Wait, why can’t the MCU be universe 616? I thought that was the main universe in the comics? I thought the reason was, “because it’s the main universe in the comics”. If people aren’t speaking in text bubbles, the MCU can’t be that universe. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/79 "2022-06-26T21:57:41Z")
This is addressed in the movie “With your power you could force America to take you to a universe where you’ve died but your kids are alive. Why do you need her power?” “To protect my children. What if they fall ill, and the antidote is in another dimension” ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171/80 "2022-06-26T21:58:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The hole isn’t mentioned again, and at the end of the film, you can see that there’s a patch sewn on it. Seemed weird to me, like it was setting something up that got cut, or something. I’d have to watch it again, but I remember a throw-away line about 'hey I fixed your cloak for you" “thank you” as they were headed into one of the big battles. I _think_ it was Christine… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-open-spoilers/956171.md?page=5)