# Doctor Who -- 1651 England how ethnically diverse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 27, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908 "2015-10-27T21:51:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/21 "2015-11-02T09:55:33Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > also, he spelt “Spelled” wrong. My autocorrect did that. [QUOTE=Alessan] Th ethnic mix of the crowd is exactly the same ethnic mix of any crowd in Doctor Who - it can be ancient Rome, modern-day Liverpool or New New York in the year fifteen billion, you’ll see exactly the same faces, namely, those of the same random people who’d show up at a casting agency in Cardiff. [/QUOTE] Thank the stars the show is not based in Manchester then. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/22 "2015-11-02T11:57:33Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What the hell are “People of color” (colour is spelled wrong as well)? It’s what Americans now say instead of “colored people”. Also explains the difference in spelling. You know we have Who here now, and that stuff is spelled differently, right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/23 "2015-11-02T12:04:43Z")
I was too busy trying to decide whether Tyburn would have had a gated bridge like that, but it’s a minor point. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/24 "2015-11-02T12:28:15Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > It’s what Americans now say instead of “colored people”. Not quite. To the best of my understanding, it refers to _any_ non-white people, and not just people of African descent. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/25 "2015-11-02T12:41:05Z")
That is correct. Right now (because these things change over time): Colored people - old fashioned term for those of African descent. People of color - anyone of non-European ancestry, that is, “not white”. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/26 "2015-11-02T13:43:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That is correct. > > Right now (because these things change over time): > > Colored people - old fashioned term for those of African descent. > > People of color - anyone of non-European ancestry, that is, “not white”. So,[Alexai Leonov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Leonov) born in Siberia "is also a “person of color”? This [Pakistani Senator](http://i57.tinypic.com/33u8kqs.jpg). Or these girls from [W China](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/385620786815002598/)? Only thing weirder than American obsession with race is just how badly they get it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/27 "2015-11-02T13:56:39Z")
I can’t speak for the Pakistani senator because that site wouldn’t load on my system, but the other two pictures the people clearly have European _ancestry_ regardless of where they were born, just as I have (mostly) European _ancestry_ even though I was born in North America. True, there is not a sharp demarcation between Europe and Asia. There is a wide area where people have mixed traits, and the propensity of invading hordes going from Asia to Europe to leave genes behind them also plays into this. There is some argument about people the Middle East as well because of a lack of understanding (or refusal to understand for political reasons) that a border area is going to be mixed. I didn’t say it was a _good_ distinction, just one that currently exists in the minds of many Americans. “People of color” is a PC way of saying “not white”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/28 "2015-11-02T13:56:45Z")
God forbid people elsewhere in the world become obsessed with ethnic differences. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/29 "2015-11-02T14:46:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I can’t speak for the Pakistani senator because that site wouldn’t load on my system, but the other two pictures the people clearly have European _ancestry_ regardless of where they were born, just as I have (mostly) European _ancestry_ even though I was born in North America. > > True, there is not a sharp demarcation between Europe and Asia. There is a wide area where people have mixed traits, and the propensity of invading hordes going from Asia to Europe to leave genes behind them also plays into this. There is some argument about people the Middle East as well because of a lack of understanding (or refusal to understand for political reasons) that a border area is going to be mixed. > > I didn’t say it was a _good_ distinction, just one that currently exists in the minds of many Americans. “People of color” is a PC way of saying “not white”. Errr, those two Chinese girls are _not_ of European ancestry at all, they are [Uyghurs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs) Alexai Leonov was of Siberian and Mongolian (IIRC) descent. Both of them are not off any European ancestry and hail from regions far from what is called Europe, and in unkike your case are not descendants of recent immigrants either. Here is [Mateen Shah](http://i57.tinypic.com/33u8kqs.jpg) again, if it does not load, well the guy has always been useless.😃 [QUOTE=Alessan] God forbid people elsewhere in the world become obsessed with ethnic differences. [/QUOTE] God forbid, you offer any opinion which goes against the accepted wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/30 "2015-11-02T14:58:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > God forbid, you offer any opinion which goes against the accepted wisdom. When have you ever done _that_? ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/31 "2015-11-02T15:08:18Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Although when talking about Doctor Who the worse mortal sin has always been the atrocious American accents used in various episodes. Reminds me of the fuss which follows John Barrowman from Torchwood. Born in Scotland and bought up in America if he speaks with an American accent he is accused of sounding fake and if he speaks with a Scottish accent he is accused of sounding fake. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/32 "2015-11-02T15:44:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Errr, those two Chinese girls are _not_ of European ancestry at all, they are [Uyghurs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs) Alexai Leonov was of Siberian and Mongolian (IIRC) descent. Both of them are not off any European ancestry and hail from regions far from what is called Europe, and in unkike your case are not descendants of recent immigrants either. Which illustrates my point that people in border regions are going to show mixed traits. Your own link points out that Uyghurs show traits from both Europe and Asia. Based on their hair and skin color those girls would be considered white or mostly white in the US. Whether your or I would agree with that assessment is a different consideration. As for Leonov, again, regardless of ancestry he _appears_ white by common US definitions. Is that a fair assessment or not? I don’t know the man or much about him. “Siberia” is a big place and has had a lot of different people move through there over time. People defined as “Caucasian” in anthropological terms (meaning largely bone structure) have been dug up well into Central Asia and, as your Uyghar example indicates, a lot of people from Asia have traits usually associated in American minds with Europeans. Just as a number of European groups, like the Celts and their descendants (Irish, among others), often have epicanthic eye folds, a trait usually associated with Asians, despite being as far from Asia as you can get without standing in the Atlantic. Yes, yes, I know - “race” is a social construct, blah, blah, blah. Someone asked about how a term is used in the US. I answered. You can argue until you’re blue in the face that Leonov isn’t white or Caucasian or whatever but if you show a photo such as in your link to the average American they’re going to identify him as a white man. > [@](#): > > Here is [Mateen Shah](http://i57.tinypic.com/33u8kqs.jpg) again, if it does not load, well the guy has always been useless.😃 All I get from that site is pop-ups, unrelated videos, and ads. Is there actually a JPG in there anywhere or are you trying to pull some sort of stunt? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/33 "2015-11-02T16:09:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > When have you ever done _that_? Quite a lot actually. Of course, you probably would not notice as your _modus oprendi_ is to jump to personal attacks and aspersions the moment you feel slightly uncomfortable with an argument. [QUOTE=Broomstick] Which illustrates my point that people in border regions are going to show mixed traits. Your own link points out that Uyghurs show traits from both Europe and Asia. [/QUOTE] Uyghurs are about as far from Europe can be, its hardly a “border region”. These guys are not “colored” or “white” or European. They are…Uyghurs. [QUOTE=Broomstick] Based on their hair and skin color those girls would be considered white or mostly white in the US. Whether your or I would agree with that assessment is a different consideration. [/QUOTE] People are lousy at phenotypes, I get it. > [@](#): > > All I get from that site is pop-ups, unrelated videos, and ads. As do I when I click it now, I think my computer must have some vicious adware or something else is wrong. Try [here](http://aan.ndu.edu.pk/issra/images/ISSRA/NSW5/mateen_shah.jpg) > [@](#): > > Is there actually a JPG in there anywhere or are you trying to pull some sort of stunt? Why they fuck would I pull off a “Stunt”?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/34 "2015-11-02T16:16:47Z")
I don’t know, some people have a strange idea of a joke. As for Shah - in that picture he’d probably be called “white” in the US unless someone knew he was from Pakistan, in which case they might say “person of color” because, as I noted, there are social issues associated with racial definitions in the US. It’s a bit like people arguing over whether or not Barrack Obama is African-American or not - which on the face of it seem ridiculous, not only does the man visibly show African ancestry his father was from Nigeria. But some people hold his white mother against him, and other insist part of being “African-American” is being descended from slaves who lost the details of their African origins. As Obama is the son of a Nigerian and a white American woman he clearly doesn’t fit that definition regardless of skin color and hair type. Likewise, some people get their panties in a twist if a white South African is called “African” even though said person’s family might well have lived in Africa for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/35 "2015-11-02T16:21:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Uyghurs are about as far from Europe can be, its hardly a “border region”. These guys are not “colored” or “white” or European. They are…Uyghurs. Yes, and as noted they show some traits usually associated with Europeans although those of us who are educated know that those traits aren’t _exclusively_ European. Just as I pointed out many Irish have epicanthic eye folds without being of Chinese descent. For that matter, there are blonds and redheads among the South Pacific natives without outside ancestry, too. The Ainu of Japan were long suspected of being an isolated group of “white people” in far east Asia and have a hairiness usually seen in Europe, not Asia. In other words, humans are diverse. _Duh._ American definitions of race were developed in the context of North America between roughly 1500 and 2000 AD. Is it surprisingly they aren’t a good fit for, say, Central Asia 1960? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/36 "2015-11-02T16:50:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Th ethnic mix of the crowd is exactly the same ethnic mix of any crowd in Doctor Who - it can be ancient Rome, modern-day Liverpool or New New York in the year fifteen billion, you’ll see exactly the same faces, namely, those of the same random people who’d show up at a casting agency in Cardiff. That is of course the answer. Non-humans have the same exact ethnic mix as well. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/37 "2015-11-02T16:57:29Z")
Obama’s father as countless crazies have reminded us over the past 7 years was from Kenya, which is the other end of Africa from Nigeria. 😉 I can actually understand not calling him African-American, as he is not the descendant of African slaves imported to the Americas, and his (paternal at least, maybe mama’s side did so have) ancestors are not from the area where American slaves were sourced. OTH, and this is the determining factor, he identifies as such. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/38 "2015-11-02T17:29:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Th ethnic mix of the crowd is exactly the same ethnic mix of any crowd in Doctor Who - it can be ancient Rome, modern-day Liverpool or New New York in the year fifteen billion, you’ll see exactly the same faces, namely, those of the same random people who’d show up at a casting agency in Cardiff. Precisely the answer. Plus, of course, Doctor Who is a children’s programme, so it wants the actors/extras to reflect the social make up of many of its young viewers, enabling them to better relate to the show. It’s not a history lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/39 "2015-11-02T19:58:30Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I was too busy trying to decide whether Tyburn would have had a gated bridge like that, but it’s a minor point. I think they moved Tyburn about three miles west to be just outside Newgate. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908/40 "2015-11-03T14:50:50Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Precisely the answer. Plus, of course, Doctor Who is a children’s programme, so it wants the actors/extras to reflect the social make up of many of its young viewers, enabling them to better relate to the show. > > It’s not a history lesson. Exactly. This thread reminds me of the [Heimdall is black](http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/109754-Black-Thor-Actor-Talks-About-Racist-Comic-Book-Fans) controversy from the Thor movies. “Doctor Who” is a fantasy TV show about an effectively immortal alien who periodically changes his entire outer appearance & personality and travels around all of time & space in a blue box that’s about 4’ x 4’ on the outside but infinitely large on the inside, and routinely combats a race of genocidal nazi alien slugs who go around in personalized, pepper-pot armored tanks. The episode in question here deals with a viking girl who was accidentally made immortal, and the specific scene involves another alien with a vaguely leonine appearance who opens up a wormhole portal above an 18th century village and allows still more aliens to shoot energy beams into the multi-racial crowd below. Yet somehow, the “unrealistic” element that everyone is focused on is the appearance of some non-caucasians among the background extras?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-1651-england-how-ethnically-diverse/735908.md?page=3)