# Doctor Who 7x14: The Name of the Doctor **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 18, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695 "2013-05-18T19:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/141 "2013-05-24T04:05:26Z")
You make it sound like one of those ‘grab your ankles’ rides. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/142 "2013-05-24T04:58:50Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > The Valeyard should have know everything the sixth Doctor was going to do, because at one point he was the sixth Doctor, and then use that knowledge to win. Nope. The Valeyard/Doctor was attempting to change his own past by framing his previous self so that his previous self could have his remaining regenerations taken away and given to the Valeyard/Doctor. So, once he attempts to change his past, he then can’t remember how he reacted to it precisely because of that interference. The number of alternate possible timelines being created because of that is very timey wimey and you can’t assume that meddling in the past causes an immediate change in the future… the timelines need to collapse and finalize after all the possible meddlings are played through. Although, the Great Intelligence tells the current Doctor he will be known by many names, including “The Valeyard.” ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/143 "2013-05-24T05:47:26Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > Nope. The Valeyard/Doctor was attempting to change his own past by framing his previous self so that his previous self could have his remaining regenerations taken away and given to the Valeyard/Doctor. So, once he attempts to change his past, he then can’t remember how he reacted to it precisely because of that interference. The number of alternate possible timelines being created because of that is very timey wimey and you can’t assume that meddling in the past causes an immediate change in the future… the timelines need to collapse and finalize after all the possible meddlings are played through. Oh you’re good. You’re very good. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/144 "2013-05-24T13:13:41Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > That said… Wibbly-Wobbly Timey-Wimey aside, Gallifrey doesn’t exist anymore (\*\*\*and appears to have been kind-of-sort-of wiped from existence \*\*\*in that The Doctor never meets pre-Time-War Time Lords travelling around), so there’s a huge paradox in that The Valeyard can never meet the Sixth Doctor in Gallifrey. But then again, we have Wibbly-Wobbly Timey-Wimey stuff. (Emphasis mine) Well, so were the Daleks, and that’s never slowed them down… ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/145 "2013-05-24T21:17:30Z")
Does Valeyard have any sort of meaning outside of Whodom? Is it some British term I don’t know about or something just made up for the show? I understand he’s some sort of evil or villainous alternate future version of the Doctor from the original run, I just don’t know if there’s some sort of meaning to the name (like how Doctor has plenty of meaning) or just something they made up to sound cool. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/146 "2013-05-24T21:36:12Z")
> [@Jormungandr](#): > > Well, it was called the “Great Intelligence” not the “Great Wisdom” or “Great Thinker.” This was GI of the future who has probably suffered at the hands of the Doctor another umpteen times by then … ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/147 "2013-05-25T02:00:41Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Does Valeyard have any sort of meaning outside of Whodom? Is it some British term I don’t know about or something just made up for the show? I understand he’s some sort of evil or villainous alternate future version of the Doctor from the original run, I just don’t know if there’s some sort of meaning to the name (like how Doctor has plenty of meaning) or just something they made up to sound cool. From [here](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Valeyard) > [@TARDIS Data Core](#): > > Contrary to popular belief, ‘Valeyard’ is not a genuine legal title meaning doctor of law. The word was entirely made-up by writer Robert Holmes. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/148 "2013-05-25T03:30:10Z")
Watched it again. Pretty good. Jenna-Louise Coleman is a better actress than the typical Companion. ---
**Author:** ![Jormungandr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@Jormungandr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jormungandr)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/149 "2013-05-25T05:53:56Z")
I was thinking of starting another thread on this, but I still don’t get , “A souffle isn’t a souffle. A souffle is the recipe.” 😕 ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/150 "2013-05-25T15:42:34Z")
> [@Jormungandr](#): > > I was thinking of starting another thread on this, but I still don’t get , “A souffle isn’t a souffle. A souffle is the recipe.” 😕 The journey isn’t the destination, it’s the journey. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/151 "2013-05-25T15:56:45Z")
Clara isn’t Clara, she’s the concept of Clara. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/152 "2013-05-25T16:41:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Clara isn’t Clara, she’s the concept of Clara. Recipe for Clara souffle 1 time scar 1 Clara (optional) tears of the Doctor drop the Clara into the time scar shake add tears to taste allow to settle shake again but vigorously - like you really, really mean it serves one Doctor and one Clara for infinity ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/153 "2013-05-25T22:18:17Z")
> [@Jormungandr](#): > > I was thinking of starting another thread on this, but I still don’t get , “A souffle isn’t a souffle. A souffle is the recipe.” 😕 I’m guessing it has to do with a person being the sum total of their life experiences, or something? It kind of sounds like something deep on the surface, but when you examine it it turns out to be nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/154 "2013-05-26T00:35:16Z")
It’s not what you make with it, it’s what you make it with. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/155 "2013-05-26T00:59:32Z")
And a recipe is a finished product on its own. If you follow it exactly\* you will get a souffle exactly like the prototype, but cooking it is only\*\* factory work. The recipe is the idea. The souffle is just dinner, a few hours away from being raw sewage… - - Yes, I know that with cooking, especially, “exactly” is not nearly as precise as I make it sound. Thus: \*\* - Hey, I’m an engineer, so everything I design is perfect. But I don’t really dismiss my friends in the shop because their own expertise has saved my bacon many times. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/156 "2013-05-26T01:11:31Z")
_A souffle isn’t a souffle. A souffle is the recipe_ My take on this statement is that Clara is the pattern, the _recipe_ that gets copied, over and over again throughout the Doctor’s timeline. Each of those instances of Clara are as much her as the original. I suspect, although I can’t be sure, that Moffat is alluding to the philosophical contortions that people get into when they consider things like teleportation and mind-cloning. If you step into a teleporter, and you are destroyed, but an exact copy of you appears elsewhere, are you dead or just in anothet place? The same thing happens with Clara, except she is copied and transmitted to elsewhen, rather than elsewhere. If we take Clara’s platitude seriously, then she isn’t just the **one** souffle girl, she is the recipe for \*\*all of them \*\*- she is the _pattern_, endlessly repeated. Each souffle girl is different, but they are all the same. We have had numerous threads on this philosophical conundrum over at General Questions: here’s one > **[Transporters and the destruction of the self: What am I missing here?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=643193)** > > In another thread about AI rights and sentience, a side conversation developed about storing people’s brains and downloading them into clones, or transporters. Now unwilling to hijack, we decided to agree to disagree about the point and let it die.... [QUOTE=eburacum45] Two schools of thought can perhaps be discerned here; 1/ the **Continuous Identity theory** , which supposes that consciousness is a continuous process, and must continue to exist in a particular physical body an cannot be copied or transferred. One thought experiment that seems to argue against the continuity theory is Mangetout’s stasis box experiment; but since stasis boxes don’t exist, it doesn’t really prove very much. 2/ the **Pattern Identity theory** , which says that consciousness is a pattern of memories and programs inside the body, mostly but not all in the CNS, and like any other collection of programs and memories it could in theory be copied exactly. If you have a perfectly working teleporter the pattern can be transferred perfectly (or within an acceptable margin of error-see above) to another location, and it will have the same identity as before. If the teleport goes wonky and produces copies, both inherit the same identity, but as ‘dividuals’ they instantly start to diverge from each other. But since we don’t have a teleport machine we can’t prove this one way or the other, and I suspect that even if we did the whole issue would still be unresolved. [/quote] Clara Oswin Oswald apperaes to believe in the Pattern Identity interpretation of mind-cloning; either that, or she has convinced herself that she does by repeating the “a souffle is the recipe” matra. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/157 "2013-05-26T09:09:34Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > It kind of sounds like something deep on the surface, but when you examine it it turns out to be nonsense. Ah, so you’re familiar with Steven Moffat. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/158 "2013-05-26T10:16:44Z")
I’m afraid so. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/159 "2013-05-26T20:58:52Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > From [here](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Valeyard) Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-7x14-the-name-of-the-doctor/658695/160 "2013-05-26T21:48:35Z")
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