# Doctor Who "Dark Water" and "Death in Heaven" (spoilers after it airs) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906 "2014-10-29T14:24:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/21 "2014-11-02T03:53:17Z")
Uh…I am obviously dense. Help me understand. [spoiler] So, the Master is doing what? Uploading people’s brains to the Nethersphere when they die? How? How is she getting the brains to upload? Danny stepped in front of a car and died. How is his mind in the computer? How does she know when someone will die so she can go get their mind? Also, are the Cybermen filled with those dead people’s conciousness? How does this help her? Can she control them or something? [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/22 "2014-11-02T05:08:57Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > There was a pretty strong “bromance” subtext going on with Ten and the Master. And we haven’t really explored Time Lord sexuality that much. So it’s possible. Yeah, that’s what I was thinking too. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/23 "2014-11-02T05:24:18Z")
Answers to the questions inside the single spoiler box. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Uh…I am obviously dense. Help me understand. > > > [@](#): > > > > So, the Master is doing what? Uploading people’s brains to the Nethersphere when they die? How? How is she getting the brains to upload? Danny stepped in front of a car and died. How is his mind in the computer? How does she know when someone will die so she can go get their mind? > > In “The Bells of Saint John” the Great Intelligence uploaded people’s minds to a server, I’m assuming this is a variation on that. How the Great Intelligence did it…uhm…magic, I mean science. > > > [@](#): > > > > Also, are the Cybermen filled with those dead people’s conciousness? How does this help her? Can she control them or something? > > In “Rise of the Cybermen” and “Age of Steel” John Lumic, creator of the Cybermen on a parallel earth seemed to be able to control them by suppressing their emotions. In this episode Missy said emotions were removed, so I guess that gives her control over these Cybermen. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/24 "2014-11-02T06:22:06Z")
It ended up not being relevant to the larger plot, but during that whole opening sequence with Clara throwing the Tardis keys into the lava, all I could think was “…but the Doctor can open the Tardis doors just by snapping his fingers, so…?” ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/25 "2014-11-02T07:29:35Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > It ended up not being relevant to the larger plot, but during that whole opening sequence with Clara throwing the Tardis keys into the lava, all I could think was “…but the Doctor can open the Tardis doors just by snapping his fingers, so…?” I was thinking that too. Or it would have been funny if he had to beg the TARDIS, “Come on sexy, let me in, please?” ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/26 "2014-11-02T11:14:19Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > It ended up not being relevant to the larger plot, but during that whole opening sequence with Clara throwing the Tardis keys into the lava, all I could think was “…but the Doctor can open the Tardis doors just by snapping his fingers, so…?” I thought that too, but \*\*RealOmegaMan \*\*tells me that only works if you have a key on you. ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/27 "2014-11-02T11:52:50Z")
Sorry for the double post (not my fault, hurry up and wake up, America!) 😉 but is it just me, or was there something weird going on at the very start of the episode, during the phone call that Clara distracted Danny to death in? It all seemed a bit wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey, she wasn’t quite making sense, it was like she needed the post-it notes (with the episodes neatly written out) to tell her who she was, and I really got the impression she was calling to say goodbye, as if it was her who was dying, and that was the last time she’d ever get to say “I love you” at all. And quick boast - I got it straight away. The distracted shot of him leaving the park (which looked a LOT like Missy’s garden heaven set) and approaching the busy road without paying attention, the sudden silence on the end of the phone… I called it before the other woman even spoke on the phone 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/28 "2014-11-02T18:58:24Z")
Can’t say much of it makes too much sense to me so far. Missie being The Master was assumed by most who post here for a long time. But did Missie plan for Pink to die and for that to somehow lure The Doctor to her? So far it does not fit with many of the teaser clues … It probably won’t make sense at the end and I am sure there will be BAD SCIENCE!! throughout. 🙂 But what the heck. It was fun. **Nobody** ’s observation about the volcano callback is a hit myself on the head “Of course!” - the whole subject of “time can be rewritten” in adition to Capaldi’s previous stint. The call back to River Song’s fate in The Library was also good. The “Go to Hell.” misunderstanding was great. Will they follow through on the Orpheus/Eurydice allusion? Will she almost rescue Pink being told by The Doctor that to get away she has to trust him and not look back to see if Pink is still there and be unable to stop herself and thereby lose Pink forever? ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/29 "2014-11-02T19:22:42Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > I want more River Song! And I agree about Donna–she and Tennant had fantastic chemistry. You could easily tell they were good friends in real life. And it was nice to have _somebody_ who wasn’t in love with the Doctor! No no no, never any more River Song. Moffat broke her, as well as the Angels, in the last few seasons. I’m perfectly happy never to see her again, and skip her later episodes (I’d have to go back through to figure out exactly when she went off the rails.) I’ve absolutely adored Capaldi. It’s hard for me to judge Doctors while they’re running; they’re always my favorite when they’re on (at least so far; we haven’t had any real stinkers in the modern era), but Capaldi is doing quite well so far for me. I’ve adored this season as well–it has been without a bad episode, IMO. Some were just good, quite a few were great. I couldn’t help thinking when watching an ad for various kids’ Doctor Who toys, including an 11 costume for dress-up, that Peter Capaldi may not be the best thing to happen to that kind of marketing–it’s a bit hard to imagine kids wanting to dress up as a grumpy Scotsman. Who knows, though–kids are weird. Episode was fine; not a shocker that Missy turned out to be the [del]Master[/del] Mistress. I missed what the hell 3W stood for, if they ever said it; it seemed to go from that to “Don’t cremate me!”. We’ll see how this all wraps up… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/30 "2014-11-02T19:30:25Z")
Yeah, I think 3W = “three words” = “Don’t cremate me.” Even though “Don’t” is really two words by itself so that’s four words …Argh. Now it’s BAD GRAMMAR!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/31 "2014-11-02T20:31:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yeah, I think 3W = “three words” = “Don’t cremate me.” Even though “Don’t” is really two words by itself so that’s four words …Argh. Now it’s BAD GRAMMAR!! > > 🙂 [Captain Obvious] Most people count compound words as a single word, so it’s all good. [/Captain Obvious] ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/32 "2014-11-02T20:34:38Z")
I’ve only been half following this season, but were the moments of foreshadowing throughout, with dead people meeting a strange Scottish lady, necessary? It just gets a tad boring being reminded all the way through that you’ll see someone in the final one or two episode by showing a few seconds of them in every other episode. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/33 "2014-11-02T20:53:28Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > [Captain Obvious] Most people count compound words as a single word, so it’s all good. [/Captain Obvious] Contractions … but [yeah](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=591595). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/34 "2014-11-02T21:34:32Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I’ve only been half following this season, but were the moments of foreshadowing throughout, with dead people meeting a strange Scottish lady, necessary? > > It just gets a tad boring being reminded all the way through that you’ll see someone in the final one or two episode by showing a few seconds of them in every other episode. They’ve definitely taken a light touch on the arc plot this season; that’s fine with me. But there’s definitely an argument to be made that the Missy scenes weren’t really necessary to set up this plot, instead serving mostly to create interest in and curiosity about the finale. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/35 "2014-11-02T22:09:37Z")
> [@Cinnamon\_Imp](#): > > Sorry for the double post (not my fault, hurry up and wake up, America!) 😉 but is it just me, or was there something weird going on at the very start of the episode, during the phone call that Clara distracted Danny to death in? Yes, definitely. My guess is, with the ‘time can be rewritten’-foreshadowing, that this was somehow set up from the future in a way that’s meant to avert paradox—obviously, it wasn’t actually future Clara, or she wouldn’t have been so shocked at Danny’s death, but maybe she got some instructions to follow, or something, in order that things may play out the way the did, or at least appear to. Like, for instance, the Doctor couldn’t go back straight away to rescue Danny, or else, the whole thing with Clara (attempting to) blackmail him into doing so could never happen, leading to paradox, but the whole thing could play out consistently with Clara merely believing Danny died. Also, we never saw the accident, or Danny’s corpse, and there was also the strange moment when Clara arrived on the street only to find it empty. So there’s going to be some timey-wimey, I wager; hopefully, it’ll be something that makes sense. Also, the big callback from this episode surely is to _The Tomb of the Cybermen_. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/36 "2014-11-02T22:17:15Z")
> [@](#): > > and there was also the strange moment when Clara arrived on the street only to find it empty. She didn’t find the street empty, when she got there it cut to a time a little while later when a memorial for Danny had already been set up. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/37 "2014-11-02T22:37:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yeah, I think 3W = “three words” = “Don’t cremate me.” Having just watched the episode again I agree - I’m certain it’s “Don’t cremate me!”. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/38 "2014-11-02T22:48:47Z")
… both Peter Capaldi and Chris Addison (playing Seb the Secretary in “Dark Water”) previously appeared in the excellent BBC political comedy “The Thick of It”. I don’t know if you can get that series in the US, but I highly recommend it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/39 "2014-11-02T23:14:38Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Also, the big callback from this episode surely is to _The Tomb of the Cybermen_. [I think they were recalling “The Invasion”.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/gallery/cybermen/vv_2.shtml) The emergence of Cybermen has been a bit limp in NuWho. Nothing’s come close for me to their [wakening from ice tombs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOrql7vzYWA), [climbing up from London’s sewers throwing manhole covers out of the way](http://youtu.be/oqOEyeDvfJA?t=1m48s) or punching out of cargo containers on board a space ship (which I couldn’t find a clip of, but is a good scene). ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/40 "2014-11-02T23:36:57Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Like, for instance, the Doctor couldn’t go back straight away to rescue Danny, or else, the whole thing with Clara (attempting to) blackmail him into doing so could never happen, leading to paradox, but the whole thing could play out consistently with Clara merely believing Danny died. Also, we never saw the accident, or Danny’s corpse, and there was also the strange moment when Clara arrived on the street only to find it empty. So there’s going to be some timey-wimey, I wager; hopefully, it’ll be something that makes sense. He’s only _mostly_ dead. True love will bring him back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906.md?page=3)