# Doctor Who "Dark Water" and "Death in Heaven" (spoilers after it airs) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906 "2014-10-29T14:24:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/141 "2014-11-11T01:02:26Z")
[New Spin-off coming this summer…](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGeLygnBQI) ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/142 "2014-11-11T01:42:52Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > Doctor: All of time and space? > Osgood: What? > Doctor: Just something to put on your bucket list. > Osgood: \ Thanks, that just makes it sadder. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/143 "2014-11-11T03:11:32Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > No, he’d tell Yates, and Yates would tell Benton. D’oh! :smack: Of course I should know that! I’m the guy who was upset when some baddie appeared on the deck of the Enterprise and Picard told Worf _directly_ to have one of his men shoot it, completely bypassing Riker! Bad form. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/144 "2014-11-11T05:48:57Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > D’oh! :smack: Of course I should know that! I’m the guy who was upset when some baddie appeared on the deck of the Enterprise and Picard told Worf _directly_ to have one of his men shoot it, completely bypassing Riker! Bad form. Picard, “Riker, kill the intruder.” Riker, “Worf, kill the the intruder.” Worf, “Redshirt, kill the intruder.” Redshirt, “Too late sir, while you were all talking the intruder shot Picard and beamed out.” ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/145 "2014-11-11T12:37:45Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > No, he’d tell Yates, and Yates would tell Benton. As much as I love this, the fan nitpick is that Yates was out of UNIT. So it would have to go directly to Benton. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/146 "2014-11-11T18:00:33Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/147 "2014-11-11T18:09:41Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > nm _curious_ - why did you edit this? I thought your post had a valid point. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/148 "2014-11-11T19:10:36Z")
> [@Cinnamon\_Imp](#): > > _curious_ - why did you edit this? I thought your post had a valid point. OK - so I had orginally posted “nope, inhaler” in response to the hopes that it may have been the alien clone Osgood who was killed (not that I’d rather that one dead really, she was cool too). I remember the scene in the original ep where the two Osgoods had shared a glance when the one pulled out the inhaler to use. I also remembered the scene in the most recent ep where she used the inhlaer. So I was thinking that it must be the human Osgood who got killed. But I’m thinking the glance was really about who possessed the inhaler, not who needed it - which is why I deleted the post. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/149 "2014-11-11T19:23:55Z")
And that’s a good point. However, I thought the hint in that episode was that if they morphed into a “damaged” one, they have the bad effects as well? So, unfortunately, we don’t know for sure. I can certainly understand people thinking it might be too much like Martha again with Osgood, so maybe I don’t like that she’s gone in general from the Whoniverse. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/150 "2014-11-11T19:32:17Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I wonder if they did that to make us buy that thing about her being the Doctor, even though without deceptive trailer editing it was pretty obvious she was bluffing. I admit to having been taken in briefly, but possibly only because I\* really \*wanted it to be true. I think that would have been an absolutely _awesome_ reveal. Wasn’t there a Tennant episode where he made himself forget his own identity? That could have helped explain why Clara hasn’t always seemed terribly Doctor-ish. And I’d have enjoyed the idea that a future incarnation of the Doctor came back to save himself, better than the Master/Mistress being the one who set it all up. Anyway, I figured it probably wasn’t the case, but how cool would that have been? ---
**Author:** ![neofishboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/neofishboy/32/444_2.png) [@neofishboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neofishboy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/151 "2014-11-11T20:15:46Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > … > Wasn’t there a Tennant episode where he made himself forget his own identity? > … Yes, the quite excellent series three two-parter “Human Nature/The Family of Blood”. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/152 "2014-11-11T20:29:19Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > I admit to having been taken in briefly, but possibly only because I\* really \*wanted it to be true. I think that would have been an absolutely _awesome_ reveal. > > Wasn’t there a Tennant episode where he made himself forget his own identity? That could have helped explain why Clara hasn’t always seemed terribly Doctor-ish. And I’d have enjoyed the idea that a future incarnation of the Doctor came back to save himself, better than the Master/Mistress being the one who set it all up. > > Anyway, I figured it probably wasn’t the case, but how cool would that have been? I think the problem with having Clara actually be the Doctor would have been that it’d mean the loss of Clara—in one way or the other: either, you’ll eventually have a Doctor-Clara, or you’d have to kill her off, triggering a regeneration. Plus, I’m not sure how that would’ve worked out with the whole jumping-into-the-Doctor’s-timestream bit if she herself was the Doctor… Probably possible to handwave, but still. Or, of course, it could have been actual Clara then, with the Doctor only later regenerating into someone who looks like Clara (that wouldn’t jibe with the whole ‘there never was any Clara’-bit though), which sort of would have fit with the (apparently dropped) bit about how he regenerated into a face that’s been around before. Although, thinking about that, maybe it’s too early to give up on the Clara is the Doctor thing yet—there’s a very remote chance that it might have been the truth, and that that’s exactly what the Doctor was trying to tell himself with re-using a face. But that’s probably too far out… ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/153 "2014-11-12T00:11:26Z")
Okay, another point: it’s established that Danny Pink and the Brigadier were able to resist Missy’s control. Don’t tell me that other companions of the Doctor (maybe not all, but some) were able to resist as well. My husband and I agreed that Sarah Jane certainly would! ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/154 "2014-11-12T00:23:56Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I think the problem with having Clara actually be the Doctor would have been that it’d mean the loss of Clara—in one way or the other: either, you’ll eventually have a Doctor-Clara, or you’d have to kill her off, triggering a regeneration. True enough, but companions don’t stay around forever, and I believe Coleman’s time is short. Anyway, no need to kill/regenerate her; she could just hop into her own (hidden somewhere all these years) TARDIS and be on her way! ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/155 "2014-11-12T00:30:51Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Okay, another point: it’s established that Danny Pink and the Brigadier were able to resist Missy’s control. Don’t tell me that other companions of the Doctor (maybe not all, but some) were able to resist as well. My husband and I agreed that Sarah Jane certainly would! Rory would be “FFS, not again _sigh_” ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/156 "2014-11-12T05:21:40Z")
Very mixed feelings on this one. I’ve basically never liked any of the season finales on Doctor Who (new series, at least), and while I found this one to be more enjoyable than any of the others (I think), I still had a HELL of a lot of problems with it. That it didn’t really make sense wasn’t a huge issue with me. I’ve liked nonsensical episodes of Doctor Who before. My problem with it was that it was entirely about Clara and Danny. And when it was about the Doctor, it was mostly about how the Doctor is basically under Clara’s thumb. Clara telling the Doctor to “Do as you’re told,” and having him comply was a low point for the character for me. It’s kind of funny, because my all time favorite companion is Donna Noble, who definitely told the Doctor exactly what to do all the time, and sometimes he did _exactly_ what he was told. The difference, though, is that with Ten and Donna, it felt as though he heavily considered her advice, but still made the ultimate decision. With Twelve and Clara, in this episode at least, it seemed like he had no agency over his own choices or fate. He didn’t leap out of a plane to save Kate, but as soon as Clara called, he was sure ready to jump on her behalf. Still, there was stuff I liked a lot. Michelle Gomez brings crazy to the Master in a way that the scenery chewing Simm couldn’t (though I blame awful scrips, not Simm), and I was really charmed by the idea that the Master became so desperately lonely that she conducted this elaborate, centuries long plan in the hopes that she and the Doctor could be friends again. Everything between her and Peter Capaldi was gold. I liked the disturbing make-up on Cyber-Danny, I liked the Doctor raging in the TARDIS after his hopes of finding Gallifrey were dashed (come on, guys, she can take it, he routinely hits her with a mallet), and I thought that Danny’s arc ended well, even with the cheesy talking light. What I didn’t like: The cheesy talking light, and the fact that the season’s best arc belonged to the boyfriend of the companion. Killing Osgood without consequence. The select few people able to buck off Cyberman assimilation, with no explanation. The Brigadier as a Cyberman -it felt a bit cheap . There’s more I could say, but I’ve rambled enough. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/157 "2014-11-12T14:49:59Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > Clara telling the Doctor to “Do as you’re told,” and having him comply was a low point for the character for me. I take it as Clara starting to really fail as a companion. The role of the companion is to curb the Doctor’s sociopathic tendencies and keep him from going off the rails and playing god. Instead of doing that, Clara is starting to act and think just like the Doctor does, making her of no use as a counterbalance. > [@](#): > > I was really charmed by the idea that the Master became so desperately lonely that she conducted this elaborate, centuries long plan in the hopes that she and the Doctor could be friends again. I wonder if the signal the time lords planted in his head stopped after the events of The End of Time and there is some home for him/her to regain some sanity. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/158 "2014-11-12T15:23:20Z")
I am somewhat of a Dr Who newbie. While I’ve watched all the episodes of this season, and dozen or so selected episodes of the “new” Dr Who, I know I am missing a lot. Can someone fill me in on the back story of Osgood? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/159 "2014-11-12T15:34:41Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > yeah, I guess the lie makes some sense in retrospect, but only if Clara doesn’t know anything about Gallifrey, because they are _assholes_. 🙂 I wouldn’t trust them to “care” for the Doctor if he had a papercut. (And given all she knows about the Doctor, as she rattled off to the Cybermen, that seems unlikely). > > Still no reason to take it out on Sexy like that. How is it her fault? Time Lords are assholes, but your average everyday Gallifreyan probably isn’t. Maybe we can get a non-Time-Lord Gallifreyan companion in the near future and find out, alongside the traditional human female. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906/160 "2014-11-12T15:43:16Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > I am somewhat of a Dr Who newbie. While I’ve watched all the episodes of this season, and dozen or so selected episodes of the “new” Dr Who, I know I am missing a lot. > > Can someone fill me in on the back story of Osgood? Osgood first appeared in “Day of the Doctor” (the 50th Anniversary special). I believe she’s Kate Stewart’s daughter (not completely certain of this) but she’s definitely her underling. She’s very intelligent and “sciency” and has a thing for the Doctor (any Doctor, apparently), hence the clothes. In DotD she wore a long scarf a la Four, but in DW/DiH she gave it up for a bow tie and Converse after meeting Ten and Eleven. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-dark-water-and-death-in-heaven-spoilers-after-it-airs/702906.md?page=9)