# Doctor who performed abortions shot to death. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280 "2009-05-31T19:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/221 "2009-06-01T15:52:52Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > My definition of a human is a properly fertilized ovum, that is undergoing mitosis, on its way to producing the phenotype encoded in its DNA. It remains a human until deceased. Anyone who interferes with that process is terminating a human. Reducing the process of human development, and aging, down to the same level as tissue cells is kind of stupid. Should there be a penalty for a woman who doesn’t take care of herself to the point where she miscarries? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/222 "2009-06-01T15:53:01Z")
Ever notice how no Catholic authority ever calls for the excommunication of pro-death penalty politicians? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/223 "2009-06-01T15:53:29Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > You just discovered the religious right. > > But, I was surprised that this was not the case for **Annie-Xmas**. > > To be more precise, the reverse direction (pro-death-penalty people are also pro -life) is not true for her, since she seems to be very much pro-death penalty, but also pro-choice. I am pro-choice because I believe it’s a choice between a woman and her doctor. I also support the choice not to have an abortion. I am pro-death penalty because I think that some people only stop killing when they are dead, and some people commit such heinous acts that they have forfeited the right to be alive in our society. In short, nobody has a right to use a body against the owner’s will, be it a fetus or a person who thinks killing is a big thrill. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/224 "2009-06-01T15:53:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Very few pro-lifers ever seem to willing to acknowledge option b. That’s not entirely unexpected, though. To us, they’re infringing on a woman’s rights; to them, we’re abetting the murder of the innocent. Obviously, that doesn’t mean they’re being reasonable, but it’s not a stretch to say that by their lights there’s much more at stake than by ours. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/225 "2009-06-01T15:54:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s all that makes a human more than a large chunk of meat. In a materialistic point of view, if you are an atheist. Not if you believe in an immaterial soul, which many people do. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/226 "2009-06-01T15:55:58Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I am pro-choice because I believe it’s a choice between a woman and her doctor. I also support the choice not to have an abortion. > > I am pro-death penalty because I think that some people only stop killing when they are dead, and some people commit such heinous acts that they have forfeited the right to be alive in our society. > > In short, nobody has a right to use a body against the owner’s will, be it a fetus or a person who thinks killing is a big thrill. Unless, of course, the owner of the body is on death row. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/227 "2009-06-01T15:58:45Z")
I know this is from several pages ago, but: > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > But seeing as how you’ve chosen to leap into that void yourself, am I to understand then that it’s your contention that during the 20th week there is a veritable explosion of neurons, dendrites, axons and synapses occurring within the cortex, thus suddenly rendering fetuses not only capable of conscious thought and movement but of survival outside the womb? I said nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out that to combat a claim of “before the 20th week” with a story about a preemie that was over 21 weeks old was incorrect. I also note that, as individual infants vary in their stage of developement at birth, fetuses likely differ somewhat as far as their stage of development at 21 weeks. Some might be viable, some might not be. > [@](#): > > And if so, would you not deem the intentional destruction of at least that post twenty-week life to tantamount to murder? I don’t believe in black & white statements concerning the intricacies of medical treatement, so, no I wouldn’t blanketly say that it is or isn’t murder. It likely depends upon the situation. I know it’s a little off topic but … one other thing about abortion and late-term fetuses with anomalies: this choice which we now have, regarding whether or not to abort such fetuses, protects both ways. Women who _do_ want to see the pregnancy through to birth can do so. (I have a friend who chose to deliver a baby whose skull had not developed properly, so that the brain was outside of the skull. The baby died within a few minutes of delivery). I think that having that choice is just as important as having the other choice. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/228 "2009-06-01T16:03:17Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > In a materialistic point of view, if you are an atheist. Not if you believe in an immaterial soul, which many people do. In other words, the ignorant and the foolish. Like religious claims always are, it’s baseless, stupid and wrong. Something that there is no evidence of, that we have no reason to think is even possible, being proposed by something which is always wrong ( religion ), is NOT something that deserves any sort of consideration in a discussion about morality. Rather the opposite; belief in souls corrupts people’s moral judgement. Unless of course you are the first person in history to have actual evidence ? ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/229 "2009-06-01T16:07:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, the ignorant and the foolish. Like religious claims always are, it’s baseless, stupid and wrong. Something that there is no evidence of, that we have no reason to think is even possible, being proposed by something which is always wrong ( religion ), is NOT something that deserves any sort of consideration in a discussion about morality. Rather the opposite; belief in souls corrupts people’s moral judgement. That is open to debate. > [@](#): > > Unless of course you are the first person in history to have actual evidence ? You don’t know, you wouldn’t believe me, and I wouldn’t be/am not the first person in history. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/230 "2009-06-01T16:12:19Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > That is open to debate. Fairy tales and ghost stories, no matter how ardently believed, do not become “open to debate” just because of that fervor. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/231 "2009-06-01T16:13:02Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > You don’t know, you wouldn’t believe me, and I wouldn’t be/am not the first person in history. I assume you have some sort of cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/232 "2009-06-01T16:14:33Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I assume you have some sort of cite for that? Since when do I need a cite for a personal experience? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/233 "2009-06-01T16:17:30Z")
Since you started calling it “evidence”. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/234 "2009-06-01T16:21:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Leaving aside the fact that you’re trying to cite a blog… If you’ll look more closely at the cite, you’ll see a link to the original article in _USA Today_. I recall reading about that her online. It made national news. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > …the hand in the first picture is clearly not gripping anything, least of all the surgeon’s finger. It’s clenched, which is indicative of nothing other than the fact that the hand is fully formed. The brainstem begins to develop a discrete medulla as early as 6 weeks- which simply means it becomes capable of certain instinctual responses, not of anything approaching thought or even actual brain activity. Wrong again. Take a look at the girl in the second link who is at the same stage of development. She’s clearly holding one hand in the air like anyone else would and her other hand appears to be holding the bandage which holds her air tube in place. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Your second cite shows that a foetus- just one, though that’s enough- was viable at 21 weeks of gestation, which is remarkable, but certainly doesn’t “prove me wrong”. Au contraire. If you’ll look again (or at all) at the first cite, it mentions a database run by the University of Iowa’s Department of Pediatrics that lists seven babies born at 23 weeks between 1994 and 2003. > [@Gfactor](#): > > Please don’t change the name of a poster when you are using the quote tags. No warnings issued. Thanks. I thought it was okay in the Pit and failed to make the distinction with regard to quotes. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/235 "2009-06-01T16:24:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Au contraire. If you’ll look again (or at all) at the first cite, it mentions a database run by the University of Iowa’s Department of Pediatrics that lists seven babies born at 23 weeks between 1994 and 2003. 😕 23 is a bigger nymber than 21. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/236 "2009-06-01T16:25:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s a perfectly reasonable comparison. If one chunk of flesh that has human DNA is a human life, so is another. Your definition strips away the only part of what it means to be human that actually makes killing someone wrong; the mind. That’s all that makes a human more than a large chunk of meat. I don’t buy that. While the DNA we’re talking about is human, just simply having the latent DNA isn’t in and of itself isn’t _a_ human, if it cannot undergo mitosis (and all the other processes that produce a living and breathing individual due to natural processes.) While the mind is certainly the seat of the individual, consciousness is a gradient of awareness. The human condition is so vast, that there are those alive that have lower self-awareness than others. Some due to congenial defects. Rhetorical question: _If we were to develop a test that could tell us whether or not a fetus will become self-aware past a certain threshold, are we to abort it if it doesn’t meet that criteria?_ Resting the _humanness_ of a being solely on the mind and consciousness/self-awareness is a dangerously deluded position. [QUOTE=Kalhoun] Should there be a penalty for a woman who doesn’t take care of herself to the point where she miscarries? [/QUOTE] Don’t be silly. And why are you asking me? I’m pro-choice. When there are areas of morality as gray as this, I believe the government needs to step back, not forward. Concerning your question, that’s on you (the royal “you”). I only ask that people treat each other and themselves with respect—golden rule and all that. Whether or not you believe that respect channels down through themselves to a developing human is an exercise in humanism for everyone to work out on their own. A very complicated one, at that, with many variables. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/237 "2009-06-01T16:26:45Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Since you started calling it “evidence”. It’s evidence for me. Unless scientific experiences, spiritual experiences cannot be shared. This is a hijack of the thread. My point is not to reload the science vs. religion discussion (I am a scientist btw.). The difference is of philosophical nature, and nobody can prove that the other side is wrong. Exactly as in the pro-life/pro-abortion discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/238 "2009-06-01T16:28:02Z")
[Abortion as birth control](http://web.archive.org/web/20010427111029/http://www.we-myi.org/issues/20/atalkwith.html): “Our clinic in Brooklyn serves a large population including the area of Brighton Beach. Last year a Brighton Beach woman who had recently emigrated from the former Soviet Union came into our clinic for her 24th abortion.” - Alexander Sanger, President of Planned Parenthood of New York City and The Margaret Sanger Center International ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/239 "2009-06-01T16:30:05Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > [Abortion as birth control](http://web.archive.org/web/20010427111029/http://www.we-myi.org/issues/20/atalkwith.html): > > “Our clinic in Brooklyn serves a large population including the area of Brighton Beach. Last year a Brighton Beach woman who had recently emigrated from the former Soviet Union came into our clinic for her 24th abortion.” - Alexander Sanger, President of Planned Parenthood of New York City and The Margaret Sanger Center International Statistically speaking, the maximum operator is not a robust estimator of any distribution. It primarily describes outliers. You may want to try the mean or, even better, the median. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/240 "2009-06-01T16:33:42Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > [Abortion as birth control](http://web.archive.org/web/20010427111029/http://www.we-myi.org/issues/20/atalkwith.html): > > “Our clinic in Brooklyn serves a large population including the area of Brighton Beach. Last year a Brighton Beach woman who had recently emigrated from the former Soviet Union came into our clinic for her 24th abortion.” - Alexander Sanger, President of Planned Parenthood of New York City and The Margaret Sanger Center International Well, you’ve done it. You’ve proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that some people prefer to do it the hard way. Congratulations! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=13)