# Doctor who performed abortions shot to death. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280 "2009-05-31T19:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/301 "2009-06-01T18:57:39Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > What I meant about the ovum, is that human development is a gradient. You, yes you, were once an ovum. All demarcations are imaginary, and to tell yourself it will not eventually become an individual is deluding yourself, for whatever your own reasons may be. Yeah, well, I also used to be a field of wheat, and before that, a handful of dirt. I don’t think that requires me to sentimentalize over the destruction of a wheat field, or identify with with a dirt lot. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/302 "2009-06-01T18:59:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yeah, it pretty much does. If a person can’t be defined by by sentience and distinct personality, then the word has no meaning. And there is no “yet,” if the pregnancy is terminated. You can’t import hypothetical futures into the present. Just because oak trees grow from acorns doesn’t mean all acorns are oak trees. Some acorns are nothing but future squirrel shit. > > I don’t care how you feel about fetuses. my point is only that how you feel is not some sort of objective fact that everyone else needs to agree to. > > I think what you don’t get is that if a person _genuinely_ does not have the slightest belief that an embryo is a person, then there is nothing that needs to be “rationalized.” You are making a mistake in assumimg that everyone starts with the same perception of a zygote as you do. > > What you’re saying is akin to a PETA activist asserting that people who do not think “meat is murder” are only “rationalizing” it to themselves. Okay then, you win. Well, but we _are_ rationalizing that meat isn’t murder. Granted, for the most part, we’re killing animals for our own sustenance. I love a prime rib as much as the next guy, but that doesn’t allow me to not feel any sort of empathy for the steer. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/303 "2009-06-01T19:02:25Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > Ok, I am not American, so I need more input on this: what happens to disabled people with no relatives in the US? > > As far as I know there are orphanages in the US, so society provides protection for children.Clearly the government thinks that children are worth living even if they cannot survive on their own. My point was that individuals can’t (and shouldn’t) be legally compelled to take in the disabled and elderly, and likewise shouldn’t be compelled to incubate. The difference, of course, is that I also don’t get to terminate the inconveniently elderly or disabled, not because they are any more “worthy” than a fetus, but because they are not currently residing _inside my body_. It’s not about the relative humanity of the thing in question, it’s about sovereignty over my own physical being. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/304 "2009-06-01T19:02:36Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Do you get this weepy when you throw your cum rag in the wash? After all, human development is a gradient and you were just a sperm once and if you treat it like just a clump of cells, aren’t you just rationalizing and so on and so forth with that high-minded bullshit. Please, like I said before, I don’t believe human development begins until fertilization. And I’m not weepy at all. I’m just calling a spade a spade. You’re drawing a line, because there’s a part of you, however small, that needs to. Own up to it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/305 "2009-06-01T19:03:23Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Yes, some of these actions might conflict with their other fundamental beliefs, but if they really, truly intended to reduce abortions in the US they’d put personal pride aside. But it’s not their pride, it’s their worldview. People who, for instance, believe that birth control is wrong will push abstinence, even if it doesn’t work as well as sex ed. People who are against sex ed won’t be for it if they view it as ‘sinful’. And that’s to say nothing of folks who don’t just want to reduce abortions (and who might agree with some of all of your suggestions) but who totally want to eliminate abortions no matter which suggestions of yours they agreed with. We can discuss the rationale for all that until the cows come home, and dish out dozens of adjectives, but pretending that all of those people are acting out of hatred of women (including the women themselves) is… at best, sloppy. When dealing with someone like Der who habitually sees his political opponents as an undifferentiated mass of fungible pure evil, it’s a sign of a pathology. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/306 "2009-06-01T19:05:14Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Please, like I said before, I don’t believe human development begins until fertilization. And I’m not weepy at all. I’m just calling a spade a spade. > > You’re drawing a line, because there’s a part of you, however small, that needs to. Own up to it. Then why all the uproar over ovums? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/307 "2009-06-01T19:08:57Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The official rule in the Catohlic church is that we don’t know, since there is no mentin of that in the Bible or Tradition. However we imagine that God has something different than hell for them. Ditto for unbatised kids That is no longer taught by the Catholic church. (The concept of Limbo, that is) ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/308 "2009-06-01T19:08:57Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Then why all the uproar over ovums? Excuse me, I meant fertilized ovum. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/309 "2009-06-01T19:16:27Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Then why all the uproar over ovums? [PEDANT] Ova. [/PEDANT] ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/310 "2009-06-01T19:21:14Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > Ok, I am not American, so I need more input on this: what happens to disabled people with no relatives in the US? > > As far as I know there are orphanages in the US, so society provides protection for children.Clearly the government thinks that children are worth living even if they cannot survive on their own. There aren’t really orphanages in American society - and our unwanted children are a huge issue. Oh, its great when a woman chooses adoption for her infant - particularly if the infant is healthy, and extra special if the infant is white. We get a little more complicated though when there are complications. I know adoptive parents who turned down apparently healthy infants because the mother drank ONE DRINK during pregnancy. But there are real issues in placing older children, and real issues with placing children who have had poor (abusive) parenting. What often happens - according to the social workers we worked with during our adoption - is that a woman who is ambilvent about her pregnancy but uncertain about abortion will choose to give birth - and its surprisingly few of these women who make and follow through with adoption plans. Something happens during nine months of pregnancy, and it takes a special person to let go. So these women often try and parent. But being a parent is hard - and these kids often enter the system a few years later, when they are no longer cute babies. In the U.S. the system is one of foster care, and foster care is a system with its imperfections. In some cases, foster parents are wonderful human beings opening up their homes and families to kids. In others, they are trying to “save” the child. Or they are abusive. Or they are doing it for the stipend they get for having foster kids. Foster kids are often moved from home to home - stability doesn’t tend to be a predominant feature of the system. The U.S. is also not a country known for its generosity towards the less fortunate. Single mothers looking to make a go of it aren’t given much help from our government - and often face a lot of disapproval from society as well. Foster care programs don’t tend to be well funded - and social services agencies operate stretched even in the best of times. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/311 "2009-06-01T19:28:34Z")
At that very instant. then? When the paternalistic sperm forces its way into the innocent ovum, that is human life beginning? So, if we prevent said object from attaching to the uterine wall, then that is murder of a human? Or if, for whatever reason, if fails to do so, we should have a funeral? Perhaps an inquest, to ensure that there was no crime? Is it abortion, or birth control? How about the wretched incident outlined above, where mis-conjoined twins face a future you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy, not to mention the suffering of the parents? Is life itself, sheer existence, so utterly holy that it outweighs compassion? Is that a religious conviction? Sunday school I went to, I was offered the notion that my favorite Jewboy put compassion pretty much at the top of the list. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/312 "2009-06-01T19:34:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is life itself, sheer existence, so utterly holy that it outweighs compassion? Yes. Yet with free will, we can choose compassion over suffering, pleasure over pain, joy over sorrow. And sometimes we do. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/313 "2009-06-01T19:35:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [PEDANT] Ova. [/PEDANT] Roger that, please state your position. Ova. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/314 "2009-06-01T19:41:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At that very instant. then? When the paternalistic sperm forces its way into the innocent ovum, that is human life beginning? So, if we prevent said object from attaching to the uterine wall, then that is murder of a human? Or if, for whatever reason, if fails to do so, we should have a funeral? Perhaps an inquest, to ensure that there was no crime? Is it abortion, or birth control? > > How about the wretched incident outlined above, where mis-conjoined twins face a future you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy, not to mention the suffering of the parents? Is life itself, sheer existence, so utterly holy that it outweighs compassion? > > Is that a religious conviction? Sunday school I went to, I was offered the notion that my favorite Jewboy put compassion pretty much at the top of the list. Sure, why not? I didn’t make things the way they are, they just are. I may be a cynical fuck, but all this altruistic and sanctimonious attitude is bullshit. 90% of the decisions we (and yes, you.) make are out of self-interest or convenience. Even when we’re being generous, there’s usually an ulterior motive attached. Why do you care so much about other people’s suffering then? Why give to charity, or offer your bone marrow to strangers? Why help the elderly, the sick, the disabled when it’s so much easier to just euthanize them? They’re just miserable, right? Why draw a line somewhere? Because it makes everything easier, that’s why. What makes us more than merely a trillion cells working in unison? Fuck if I know, but I sure as hell know this, don’t pretend to have it all figured out. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/315 "2009-06-01T19:49:31Z")
You’re the one presuming to tell people how we “should” feel. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/316 "2009-06-01T19:58:05Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > You’re the one presuming to tell people how we “should” feel. We all do, don’t we? (that’s the point of debate.) You and a few others are trying to tell me that humanity doesn’t begin at fertilization, but at some “magical” point where fairies and unicorns instill it with “personhood.” Conveniently, somewhere right before they draw that line. Just own up to it, and say you’re terminating a human being, whether it’s a pill, abortion or some other means. What’s so hard about that? What are we so afraid of? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/317 "2009-06-01T20:00:20Z")
Erm… didn’t I? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/318 "2009-06-01T20:01:59Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Erm… didn’t I? Did you? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/319 "2009-06-01T20:05:45Z")
Have I somehow failed to make it clear that the humanity of it makes no difference to me at all? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/320 "2009-06-01T20:06:34Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Just own up to it, and say you’re terminating a human being, whether it’s a pill, abortion or some other means. What’s so hard about that? What are we so afraid of? Honestly? Many women and reproductive rights activists are afraid that any expression other than ‘It was the hardest decision I ever made and I cry every day over it and by the way I was a virgin raped in a dark alley by my uncle who has a genetic disease’ will be met with condescension and ire from people who most likely have never and will never need to make the decision whether or not to bring life into the world (some of which can be found in this very thread). Forget expressing relief or lack of regret, just admitting you’ve _had_ an abortion at all, a legal procedure, is pretty taboo. And I still don’t see it as terminating a human being – just a potential one. Yes, that is a lot of power for one person to wield, which is no doubt why it’s so controversial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=17)