# Doctor who performed abortions shot to death. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280 "2009-05-31T19:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/361 "2009-06-02T01:01:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense, and it doesn’t need to be that high. I said, repeatedly, that they are either out to harm women, or supporting the harm of women. And the actions of a few people - ones that even you had to call hypothetical - don’t change what the whole group is about, or the results of their actions. This isn’t what you said. You’ve said that there is no possibly reason being against abortion by anyone except a malicious desire to harm women. You didn’t say people could be misguided about their ideals or that only most of them had malicious intent - you painted the entire group as an unfaltering monolithic block. > [@](#): > > If I bought your logic, I couldn’t label people who support slavery and torture as bad, either. You are simply in denial that a political movement can be fundamentally ill meaning. Ok. What if someone truly believed that a fetus was a human life? Where do you go from there logically? Do you say “eh, whatever, there are other people who don’t think it’s a human life, so I won’t take a stance on the issue”? You presuppose that there is no one who actually thinks that an unborn human is a life that needs to be protected. Therefore, no one can take a stance on abortion based on that belief. Therefore, opposition to abortion must have other sources - why, forcing women to have babies they don’t want - yes, that sounds deliciously evil! You’re not saying “the position of thinking an unborn child is a human life that deserves protection is misguided, and here’s why” - you’re saying that position doesn’t exist, and therefore, since it doesn’t exist, everyone who is against abortion must have much more evil motives. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/362 "2009-06-02T01:02:00Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > He was a baby killer, IMO. I will not be shedding any tears for him. Does that mean you endorse his murder? (In a church, I might add) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/363 "2009-06-02T01:05:44Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The fetus is using her reproductive organs against her will just like a rapist, right? I thought that was the point of the statement. Yes, I realize it “undermines the specific, intentional, horrors inflicted by rapists” because I was saying how ridiculous the statement was. “Just like a rapist”? No. Just as a runaway train is not “Just like a train driven by Snidely Whiplash.” There are similarities. They are not identical. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/364 "2009-06-02T01:10:55Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > He was a baby killer, IMO. I will not be shedding any tears for him. I’ll go a step further then **Really Not…**. Since you posted in this thread to endorse his murder, how many “babies” equals a grown man with a life and a family being gunned down in a fucking church? Just to make it a moral wash, let’s say, not necessarily to make the gunman a hero or anything. Is it like, one “baby,” one doctor? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/365 "2009-06-02T01:27:24Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > He was a baby killer, IMO. I will not be shedding any tears for him. No one wishes to take away your right to control your own body, including the dear ducts. But your opinion that Dr. Tiller was a baby killer is factually wrong. JFTR. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/366 "2009-06-02T01:31:55Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > He was a baby killer, IMO. I will not be shedding any tears for him. Baby-killer? The cats you used to drown in your uncle’s creek were more sentient than those so-called “babies.” How many times does it have to be pointed out that late-term abortions are very rare-done outside of medical emergencies? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/367 "2009-06-02T01:37:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > This line of view can lead to ethical abortions of 5 minute old babies, right? I’m not necesarily disagreeing with the concept, just want clarification. How can a baby be aborted? It’s pregnancies that are aborted, not babies (or fetuses). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/368 "2009-06-02T01:39:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Baby-killer? The cats you used to drown in your uncle’s creek were more sentient than those so-called “babies.” How many times does it have to be pointed out that late-term abortions are very rare-done outside of medical emergencies? Once. That’s all it takes when the person is listening. If they aren’t listening, stop talking to them. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/369 "2009-06-02T01:40:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How can a baby be aborted? It’s pregnancies that are aborted, not babies (or fetuses). Fine. Replaced abortions with “terminations” - whatever. You know what I meant. And here we go again with another round of semantics over substance in this debate. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/370 "2009-06-02T01:46:55Z")
I don’t think there’s any value to engaging **Der Trihs** here. If you review this thread, you’ll see that he posted his usual nonsense – hateful, childish, and completely devoid of any apparent rationale – three times before someone deigned to offer a one-off response. When that poster showed no interest in continuing the discussion, \*\*Der \*\*went right back to popping in with the same unsolicited idiocy in a \*desperate \*attempt to get someone to notice him. He’s sincere, but he’s still a troll. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/371 "2009-06-02T01:49:51Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Ok. What if someone truly believed that a fetus was a human life? Where do you go from there logically? Do you say “eh, whatever, there are other people who don’t think it’s a human life, so I won’t take a stance on the issue”? You recognize that it is a complex issue involving science and morality, and that however strong your particular belief may be, that there is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree, and thus arrive at a practical compromise. You know, kind of like we have now. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/372 "2009-06-02T01:50:22Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > This isn’t what you said. You’ve said that there is no possibly reason being against abortion by anyone except a malicious desire to harm women. You didn’t say people could be misguided about their ideals or that only most of them had malicious intent - you painted the entire group as an unfaltering monolithic block. No, I didn’t. I’m saying that their actions demonstrate that the anti-abortion movement is a crusade against women, and therefore anyone who supports it is either a woman hater or supports woman haters. I’m saying that it’s a vile position to hold, that their justifications for their beliefs don’t remotely hold water, and don’t see any reason to care why they hold that position or whether they are liars or willfully self deluded. The result is the same. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Ok. What if someone truly believed that a fetus was a human life? Where do you go from there logically? Do you say “eh, whatever, there are other people who don’t think it’s a human life, so I won’t take a stance on the issue”? I’d say, and have that all that does is redefine human life as something that has no intrinsic value. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Therefore, opposition to abortion must have other sources - why, forcing women to have babies they don’t want - yes, that sounds deliciously evil! That is what they are trying to do, by definition. That’s what forcing a woman to not have an abortion DOES. Are you next going to act all astonished when I claim that torturers inflict suffering on people, or that thieves steal things ? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/373 "2009-06-02T01:55:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But your opinion that Dr. Tiller was a baby killer is factually wrong. How can an opinion be “factually wrong”? If it’s my opinion he’s a baby killer, then it’s my opinion he’s a baby killer. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > How many times does it have to be pointed out that late-term abortions are very rare-done outside of medical emergencies? Why does frequency matter? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/374 "2009-06-02T01:55:18Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > I don’t think there’s any value to engaging **Der Trihs** here. If you review this thread, you’ll see that he posted his usual nonsense – hateful, childish, and completely devoid of any apparent rationale – three times before someone deigned to offer a one-off response. When that poster showed no interest in continuing the discussion, \*\*Der \*\*went right back to popping in with the same unsolicited idiocy in a \*desperate \*attempt to get someone to notice him. > > He’s sincere, but he’s still a troll. Fair enough, you’re probably right. > [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > You recognize that it is a complex issue involving science and morality, and that however strong your particular belief may be, that there is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree, and thus arrive at a practical compromise. You know, kind of like we have now. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wasn’t advocating killing abortion doctors, I was challenging **Der Trihs’** position that there could be no one who genuinely advocated against abortion out of concern for the unborn. In his world view, there’s no such thing as someone who believes killing the unborn is wrong - they don’t care about them, they just use it as an excuse to inflict harm on women. You and I aren’t disagreeing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/375 "2009-06-02T02:03:26Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Fine. Replaced abortions with “terminations” - whatever. You know what I meant. > > And here we go again with another round of semantics over substance in this debate. It’s the pregnancy that’s “terminated.” Abortion is about ending a pregnancy before it results in a live birth. After there’s a birth, abortion language doesn’t apply any more. If you’re asking if I think it’s ethical to kill a baby after it’s born, of course not. It’s born. It is no longer part of someone else’s body. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/376 "2009-06-02T02:11:34Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > How can an opinion be “factually wrong”? If it’s my opinion he’s a baby killer, then it’s my opinion he’s a baby killer. > Why does frequency matter? Your opinion as offered is a truth statement about a person who exists in reality (albeit within a time frame that has already passed). The True/False value of that truth statement is FALSE. Outside of its utililty as a troll, there’s really no need to have it expressed outside your li’l head. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/377 "2009-06-02T02:11:37Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Fair enough, you’re probably right. > > I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wasn’t advocating killing abortion doctors, I was challenging **Der Trihs’** position that there could be no one who genuinely advocated against abortion out of concern for the unborn. In his world view, there’s no such thing as someone who believes killing the unborn is wrong - they don’t care about them, they just use it as an excuse to inflict harm on women. You and I aren’t disagreeing. Sorry if that came across as a dig against you; that wasn’t what I meant. Rather I was trying to point out that (while I am pro choice) I think, as a society, we all would be best served by realizing that disagreement on this issue is inevitable and seek a reasonable compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/378 "2009-06-02T02:26:11Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > How can an opinion be “factually wrong”? If it’s my opinion he’s a baby killer, then it’s my opinion he’s a baby killer. When it’s based on ignorance? > [@](#): > > Why does frequency matter? Because, as pointed out, the rare occurances are _medical emergencies_. :rolleyes: You have something against taking care of an ectopic pregnancy, or a dead fetus? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/379 "2009-06-02T02:27:47Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > Sorry if that came across as a dig against you; that wasn’t what I meant. Rather I was trying to point out that (while I am pro choice) I think, as a society, we all would be best served by realizing that disagreement on this issue is inevitable and seek a reasonable compromise. First, the anti-abortion side isn’t reasonable. And second why compromise with evil ? When does that ever turn out well ? And third, what kind of “compromise” can there be for such a binary situation ? Half abortions ? ---
**Author:** ![RedRosesForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/91b2a8/32.png) [@RedRosesForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRosesForMe)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/380 "2009-06-02T02:29:01Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > How can an opinion be “factually wrong”? If it’s my opinion he’s a baby killer, then it’s my opinion he’s a baby killer. > Why does frequency matter? As has been pointed out several times in this thread, “under Kansas law, late-term abortions can be performed on foetuses that would be viable outside the mother’s womb **but only if** two independent doctors agree that not to do so would put the mother at risk of irreparable harm by giving birth.” (bolding mine)[Link](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/01/us-abortion-doctor-shooting-murder) So the question for you, **Crafter\_Man** , is whether you think the fetus’ rights trump those of the woman carrying it that you’d rather she suffer irreparable harm or death by carrying it to term. So while you may persist in your beliefs that Tiller is a baby-killer, many others would consider him a compassionate medical professional helping women who have no other choice. Also in that link, Tiller’s clinic was only one of three in the U.S. that performs abortions after the 21st week, which would imply that abortions after the 21st week are exceedingly rare. So, **Starving Artist** , since you’d “prefer that all abortions save for those that are legitimate medical necessities be done prior to the that stage,” it does seem that the vast majority are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=20)