# Doctor who performed abortions shot to death. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280 "2009-05-31T19:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/101 "2009-06-01T03:17:02Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > That was just one section of a ten page report. > > Here’s a link that has the full report. It was comissioned by the Bush Administration. > > [Homeland Security Report Warns Of Rising Right-Wing Extremism | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/14/homeland-security-report_n_186834.html) Can you quote the section that addresses abortion? I’m not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/102 "2009-06-01T03:17:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s certainly impossible for anything that could accurately be described as a “brain wave” to occur prior to the 20th week, because no human foetal cortex develops neurons, dendrites and axons and begins running synapses across them prior to that. That’s what i was gonna say. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/103 "2009-06-01T03:23:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you quote the section that addresses abortion? I’m not seeing it. It isn’t really about (anti-)abortion extremists but it does mention them in passing: > [@](#): > > Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and > adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), > and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or > rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a > single issue, such as opposition to **abortion** or immigration. > [@](#): > > Paralleling the current national climate, rightwing extremists during the > 1990s exploited a variety of social issues and political themes to increase group visibility > and recruit new members. Prominent among these themes were the militia movement’s > opposition to gun control efforts, criticism of free trade agreements (particularly those > with Mexico), and highlighting perceived government infringement on civil liberties as > well as white supremacists’ longstanding exploitation of social issues such as **abortion** , > inter-racial crimes, and same-sex marriage. During the 1990s, these issues contributed to > the growth in the number of domestic rightwing terrorist and extremist groups and an > increase in violent acts targeting government facilities, law enforcement officers, banks, > and infrastructure sectors. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/104 "2009-06-01T03:32:34Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I believe you shouldn’t terminate pregnancy because it inconveniences you. Then why should you be able to put the kid up for adoption if it inconveniences you? After all, there will be a great deal of psychological dislocation to a child who is cycled through the foster care system. Why not just say to the parents: “Well, you two had sex and you made a baby, now you have to marry each other and raise the kid.” After all, this used to be a fairly common response to just such a predicament (_see_ Wikipedia, [“Shotgun Wedding”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_wedding#Shotgun_wedding)). What happened is that we discovered that forcing women to bear children that they didn’t want (or better, believed, often rightly, that they were not prepared to support and usher into adulthood) serves nobody’s interest. All the high-minded talk about how every sperm is sacred was dashed on the reality that no, a blastomere is not really a lot like a mature human adult or even a newborn infant and that consigning people to life-altering negative consequences just to satisfy somebody’s Thomistic view of reproductive ethics doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. So let’s give up the fatuous contention that women get abortions because it merely inconveniences them, shall we? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/105 "2009-06-01T03:41:24Z")
> [@Pazu](#): > > Almost as funny as there being Christian chaplains in the military. Chaplains are non-combatants. Know what else is funny: militaries employ doctors to _gasp_ save the lives of enemy prisoners! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/106 "2009-06-01T03:43:08Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Except it’s the unborn that you consider “just a lump of cells”. Sorta like…well, I dunno…you, for instance. Heck, I’d cheerfully stipulate that a fetus is human, a person, alive, sentient… slather on all the labels you want. I’m pro-choice for entirely different reasons. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/107 "2009-06-01T03:47:18Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > So let’s give up the fatuous contention that women get abortions because it merely inconveniences them, shall we? Lets not ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/108 "2009-06-01T03:50:05Z")
> [@MadTheSwine](#): > > Lets not Zing! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/109 "2009-06-01T03:54:06Z")
I noticed upthread someone disagreeing with the usage of the word _vigilante_. [Check out Definition 3 under the first entry.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vigilante) ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/110 "2009-06-01T04:00:42Z")
> [@kimmy\_gibbler](#): > > then why should you be able to put the kid up for adoption if it inconveniences you? After all, there will be a great deal of psychological dislocation to a child who is cycled through the foster care system. Why not just say to the parents: “well, you two had sex and you made a baby, now you have to marry each other and raise the kid.” after all, this used to be a fairly common response to just such a predicament (_see_ wikipedia, [“shotgun wedding”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/shotgun_wedding#shotgun_wedding)). > > What happened is that we discovered that forcing women to bear children that they didn’t want (or better, believed, often rightly, that they were not prepared to support and usher into adulthood) serves nobody’s interest. All the high-minded talk about how every sperm is sacred was dashed on the reality that no, a blastomere is not really a lot like a mature human adult or even a newborn infant and that consigning people to life-altering negative consequences just to satisfy somebody’s thomistic view of reproductive ethics doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. > > So let’s give up the fatuous contention that women get abortions because it merely inconveniences them, shall we? blowhard alert! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/111 "2009-06-01T04:00:48Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Yeah, that’s the logical conclusion one could draw from my post. I think pregnant women shouldn’t kill their babies. Therefore, they’re not humans. No no, Der Trihs, it’s you that think humans aren’t humans. Except it’s the unborn that you consider “just a lump of cells”. Sorta like…well, I dunno…you, for instance. The pain, the risk, and the long term health consequences are minimal and infintessimally small compared to the life of the child. In other words, you think a mindless lump of tissue is of greater value than a woman. I’d ask why you just don’t come out and call women something like “sows”, except you probably have greater regard for animals than you do for a mere woman. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Full disclosure: I think life begins at roughly 10 weeks. If you want to round it off to the first trimester, I’m cool with that. If there were a way to find out when the fetus has brain waves and a functioning heart, let’s call that life. Six months, at the earliest for human brain waves. The heart doesn’t matter. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I believe you shouldn’t terminate pregnancy because it inconveniences you. The woman’s life or health must be at risk. So no, if ‘the bitch’ dies, she doesn’t deserve it. It’s that I think most of these women aren’t going to die. It’s ALWAYS a risk, and has long term health consequences. Not that I believe that you actually care, or do anything other than gloat over the death of a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/112 "2009-06-01T04:05:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you quote the section that addresses abortion? I’m not seeing it. I never said anything about abortion. The report was about right-wing extremism. The suspect is a anti-tax protester, a militiaman, and has now shot an abotion provider. Do you need more evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/113 "2009-06-01T04:16:43Z")
> [@MadTheSwine](#): > > blowhard alert! I’ll say. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/114 "2009-06-01T04:21:07Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I noticed upthread someone disagreeing with the usage of the word _vigilante_. [Check out Definition 3 under the first entry.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vigilante) My objection stands. It still carries the implicit assumption that the target of vigilantism is an appropriate target for the justice system. Such was not the case with Dr. Tiller. P.S. **Der Trihs** , how about we find you a seat at the kid’s table? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/115 "2009-06-01T04:28:29Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Thanks for sharing. Gobble a dick, **Gibbler**. I asked a legitimate question and raised a legitimate point, as well as being educated on the laws regarding late term abortions. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/116 "2009-06-01T04:35:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So if you weren’t breaking up, they would have carried the children to term? That seems like it has less to do with abortion as contraception and more to do with how your relationships were going. > > I’m sure that many women do have abortions because they don’t want to have babies. That doesn’t mean they didn’t take obvious birth control precautions (though presumably lots didn’t). It also doesn’t tell you whether or not the other responsible party (ie., the male) took just-as-obvious precautions. > > Unfortunately, while pregnancies are charged to both participants in sex, the abortion is only blamed on one. > > I don’t understand your last sentence at all. Who on earth is praising women for having abortions? My sadly anecdotal experience tells me otherwise. There were lots of women in the abortion clinic both times I went to accompany my girlfriend for their procedure, and most of them were barely pregnant, which tells me they are terminating their pregnancies for the sole reason that they got knocked up and don’t want a baby. That’s their right, though. It doesn’t make it any less sad. BUT… And as far as this guy that got killed goes, from what I can tell he was providing a valuable service by being a late term abortion doctor, given that it appears that the only legal reason he was performing these types of abortions were in fact protecting the mother’s health (because some people die giving birth) or terminating a pregnancy where there were severe developmental issues with the child-to-be. I have no issue with that, nor should anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/117 "2009-06-01T04:40:56Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Gobble a dick, **Gibbler**. With gusto! Ha ha. Insult FAIL! ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/118 "2009-06-01T04:47:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You know what the problem with the world is today? THERE ARE TOO MANY GODDAMN PEOPLE. That’s probably what the guy who killed Dr. Tiller thought too - he just happened to part ways with you on **who** exactly is expendable. To give more context to this story, George Tiller was in fact recently [put on trial over the question of whether he was violating the state laws on late term abortion](http://www.lifenews.com/state3998.html) by having someone who worked for him rubber stamp all his late term abortions as the “second doctor opinion”. It would not surprise me if the killer in this case was someone who was angry over that verdict and felt he had to become a vigilante to see justice done. That sort of reaction is certainly not unique to abortion debates - just look at the recent thread we had here about someone wanting to assault the guy who had raped his niece. Some people, whatever their ideology, get angry and violent when they feel the justice system isn’t able to help them. Among pro-lifers and abortion protestors (I will freely acknowledge that the guy who killed Tiller can’t really be called “pro-life”, but there are many pro-lifers who really are consistently against violence), Tiller was notorious for years for being one of the few doctors willing to abort healthy babies who were old enough to be viable. One of the former workers at his clinic, Luhra Tivis, wound up defecting to the pro-life side and testified that he was doing late term abortions on healthy babies using deceptive practices. Girls and women flew there from other states to get late term abortions. He also raised ire over situations like [Sarah Brown, a child left permanently disabled after a botched late term abortion by him](http://www.montfort.org.br/index.php?secao=imprensa&subsecao=mundo&artigo=19980928&lang=eng) and [allegations of injuries and deaths of women receiving abortions from him](http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2005/01/tiller-patient-dies.html). My opinion is that Tiller’s killer was an angry person acting alone. Operation Rescue certainly did not like Tiller, but if the group had truly wanted to kill him, they would have done it a long time ago instead of letting more abortions take place over the years while they just protested outside his clinic. Just like not everyone who is in favor of animal rights want to kill everyone involved in the meat industry, many pro-lifers find abortion distressing but honestly don’t want to hurt anybody. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/119 "2009-06-01T04:49:10Z")
All the terminology people have created around the abortion debate to control the terms of the debate is so fucking annoying. “Pro life” and “pro choice” are douchebag ways to refer to the positions on the abortion debate. People see “pro life” and say “you’re a hypocrite if you ever advocate anything that will result in death!” … “your family is being raped by a gang of bikers, and you have a shotgun… but if you shoot them, since you’re pro life, you’re a hypocrite!” is a ridiculous argument. The term clearly is meant to be in regards to the issues of abortion rights. You’re creating hypocrisy out of thin air. I’m pro abortion generally for practical reasons, but I hate the arguments that abortion supporters use about 90% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/120 "2009-06-01T04:52:43Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > My sadly anecdotal experience tells me otherwise. There were lots of women in the abortion clinic both times I went to accompany my girlfriend for their procedure, and most of them were barely pregnant, which tells me they are terminating their pregnancies for the sole reason that they got knocked up and don’t want a baby. Yes, most women get abortions because they don’t want to be pregnant (and 90% occur in the first trimester). This is supposed to be a revelation of something? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=7)