# Doctor who performed abortions shot to death. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280 "2009-05-31T19:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/121 "2009-06-01T04:54:40Z")
Actually, **SenorBeef** , I think there’s a good argument to be made that your post might be just as happy in the mini-rants thread. 'Cos it has fuck-all to do with what anyone here is talking about. 'Cept maybe, **Trihs** , over there at the kiddie table. And that’s only if you squint and hold your head j-u-u-u-st right. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/122 "2009-06-01T04:56:01Z")
It’s relevant to all the people who said “wtf? how can you murder someone if you’re pro-life?!? hypocrite!!!” - there were at least 5 posts like that in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/123 "2009-06-01T04:56:20Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > My sadly anecdotal experience tells me otherwise. There were lots of women in the abortion clinic both times I went to accompany my girlfriend for their procedure, and most of them were barely pregnant, which tells me they are terminating their pregnancies for the sole reason that they got knocked up and don’t want a baby. This is so true. If only their dickhead boyfriends had used a rubber. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/124 "2009-06-01T04:57:19Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I’ll say. I am sure you will. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/125 "2009-06-01T04:58:52Z")
> [@MadTheSwine](#): > > I am sure you will. Gobble gobble. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/126 "2009-06-01T05:03:59Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > What happened is that we discovered that forcing women to bear children that they didn’t want (or better, believed, often rightly, that they were not prepared to support and usher into adulthood) serves nobody’s interest. Chapter 4 of [Levitt and Dubner’s _Freakonomics_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freakonomics) was about [the role legalized abortion has had in reducing crime](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime). Unloved, unwanted children are more likely to become criminals. Interesting data point: my Mother’s life was saved by an abortion. She had an [Ectopic pregnancy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy), and was bleeding profusely. Under the laws proposed by some of the anti-abortion types, she could have bled to death to save the “life” of this “baby”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/127 "2009-06-01T05:06:58Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > All the terminology people have created around the abortion debate to control the terms of the debate is so fucking annoying. > > “Pro life” and “pro choice” are douchebag ways to refer to the positions on the abortion debate. People see “pro life” and say “you’re a hypocrite if you ever advocate anything that will result in death!” This would be a great argument if it wasn’t people on the anti-abortion side of the debate who came up with the “pro-life” moniker. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/128 "2009-06-01T05:08:32Z")
Almost irrelevant. You can make a case that they’re douchebags for giving themselves that label (probably true) but people understand that it does not mean “pro life no matter what in every circumstance” just like “pro choice” doesn’t mean “I’m pro choice, I think people should have a choice in anything… whether they want to have abortions… whether they want to rape kids, whatever! Choice is good!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/129 "2009-06-01T05:13:24Z")
So pro-choice people are dicks because they point out arguably false contradictions in pro-life positions… but pro-life people aren’t dicks for making things up? The idea that measurable “brain waves” occur at six weeks, for example. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/130 "2009-06-01T05:17:21Z")
Straw… man? I was responding to comments in this thread. Specifically, the obviously fallacious accusations of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/131 "2009-06-01T05:19:19Z")
Oh, well, carry on then. If you think there’s no hypocrisy inherent in murdering abortion providers in the name of Jesus, more power to you. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/132 "2009-06-01T05:28:24Z")
I didn’t say that, although I’m not necesarily disagreeing with it. Are you anti-murder? If you could go back in time to kill Hitler, would you? BUT YOU’RE ANTI-MURDER! HYPOCRITE! … they can logically view taking one life here as a way to save dozens, or even thousands if they discourage people from becoming abortion doctors. Additionally, do you think it’s inherently impossible to hold a pro-life (on abortion) stance and still advocate the death penalty? They view themselves as the protectors of innocent life - while not the defenders of guilty life. To you, there’s a huge difference between a serial killer and an abortion doctor - to them, not quite as much. Thinking someone is wrong doesn’t mean you have to pull arguments out of thin air to malign them in inaccurate ways. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/133 "2009-06-01T05:32:06Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Two ex-girlfriends aborted pregnancies of ours because we were breaking up? Look, I have no cite, and yes, I am neither a woman nor a provider of these services, but you have to be naive to think that many, many women don’t get abortions just for the simple fact that they do not want to have a baby, which could have been prevented by taking obvious birth control precautions. > > Women can do whatever the fuck they want, but I still will go on believing that women that get abortions after failing to practice safe(er) sex are not to be lauded, at all. Birth control is a two-way street, pal. Why didn’t YOU use a condom? Don’t put the blame all on your girlfriend, shithead. Oh, and? > [@](#): > > I am neither a woman nor a provider of these services Then shut the fuck up. **Senor Beef** go eat yourself. _I know I say this EVERY time a thread like this comes up, but whenever I hear this crap, it makes me want to run right out and have an abortion – and I’m not even pregnant!!! If only to piss everyone off!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/134 "2009-06-01T05:34:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > My objection stands. It still carries the implicit assumption that the target of vigilantism is an appropriate target for the justice system. > > Such was not the case with Dr. Tiller. Well, the extremists–at least the one in question–are fully convinced that the justice system should’ve dealt with Dr. Tiller. So, since the laws and the courts weren’t on the extremist’s side, he decided to dispense justice himself. Now, if it can be proven that the murderer killed Dr. Tiller for another reason, then I’ll happily change my viewpoint on the appropriateness of the term vigilante in this case. No problem if you disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/135 "2009-06-01T05:37:53Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > That’s probably what the guy who killed Dr. Tiller thought too - he just happened to part ways with you on **who** exactly is expendable **Argent** didn’t say anyone was “expendable.” He said the world was overpopulated, which it is. Saying that we need to reduce the birth rate is not equivalent to saying anyone should be killed. > [@](#): > > To give more context to this story No more context is relevant. He was murdered. That’s end of it. > [@](#): > > George Tiller was in fact recently [put on trial over the question of whether he was violating the state laws on late term abortion](http://www.lifenews.com/state3998.html) by having someone who worked for him rubber stamp all his late term abortions as the “second doctor opinion”. [The jury acquitted him](http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/28/nation/na-abortion-trial28) of those charges after less than an hour of deliberation. The prosecution was political and the charges were bullshit. > [@](#): > > One of the former workers at his clinic, Luhra Tivis, wound up defecting to the pro-life side and testified that he was doing late term abortions on healthy babies using deceptive practices. She testified where? In what court? Luhra Tivis is an anti-abortion, activist nutbag, and a member of Operation Rescue. None of her fantastic accusations have ever been substantiated. In short, she’s a fucking liar. > [@](#): > > He also raised ire over situations like [Sarah Brown, a child left permanently disabled after a botched late term abortion by him How about a legitimate cite for this crap? I can’t find a single hit for this claim that doesn’t come from a hysterical, anti-abortion website. Let’ see some kind of credible, objective citation with actual facts. I’m not buying it. and [url=[RealChoice: Tiller patient dies](http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2005/01/tiller-patient-dies.html)]allegations of injuries and deaths of women receiving abortions from him]([The story of Sarah Brown - MONTFORT](http://www.montfort.org.br/index.php?secao=imprensa&subsecao=mundo&artigo=19980928&lang=eng)). [/quote] > [@](#): > > More political bullshit. Opertation Rescue once pressured prosecutors into investigating the death of a patient who died of sepsis after an abortion (which may or may not have been performed by Dr. Tiller). The grand jury refused to even indict, saying he’d done nothing illegal. People die from surgical complications all the time. People die after appendectomies. It doesn’t necessarily mean the doctors did anything wrong, and no evidence was presented that Dr. Tiller ever did anything wrong, no matter how desperately some people wanted that to be the case. > [@](#): > > My opinion is that Tiller’s killer was an angry person acting alone. Operation Rescue certainly did not like Tiller, but if the group had truly wanted to kill him, they would have done it a long time ago instead of letting more abortions take place over the years while they just protested outside his clinic. Just like not everyone who is in favor of animal rights want to kill everyone involved in the meat industry, many pro-lifers find abortion distressing but honestly don’t want to hurt anybody. I don’t think anybody is alleging a conspiracy by Operation Rescue, but they don’t help anything if the foster members with homicidal ideation. Bill O’Reilly might have some blood on this hands. He’s been viciously and dishonestly smearing this guy for months, and has likened his practice to a “Nazi death camp.” I suspect O’Reilly has gotten exactly what he wanted (though he’d never admit it publicly, of course). ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/136 "2009-06-01T05:39:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Then shut the fuck up. Definitely. People that aren’t directly affected by policy or law have no valid opinion on them. No one on this board is in guantanamo bay, therefore no one should be anti-torture! > [@](#): > > **Senor Beef** go eat yourself. An eloquent argument as always. To be clear, when I said “I’m not necesarily disagreeing with it”, I’m not saying I think the guy did the right thing - I meant that the logic isn’t without merit. I’m not defending the guy. I think having abortion available is a good thing. But you (collective) look like idiots when you just circle jerk and make fallacious arguments against the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/137 "2009-06-01T05:41:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s certainly impossible for anything that could accurately be described as a “brain wave” to occur prior to the 20th week, because no human foetal cortex develops neurons, dendrites and axons and begins running synapses across them prior to that. Wrong. [Link](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://joseromia.tripod.com/bighand.gif&imgrefurl=http://joseromia.tripod.com/samuel.html&usg=__cjsrsfW5HXlb1eWW4lCJVY8IynY=&h=386&w=605&sz=216&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=T7Ciyd7Ei1q55M:&tbnh=86&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsurgery%2Bfinger%2B%2522fetus%2522%26as_st%3Dy%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG) and [Link](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2007/02/20/small.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php%3Faz%3Dview_all%26address%3D389x251609&usg=__Xhp40o1638f9UZwgSCzOsG-XldU=&h=405&w=245&sz=33&hl=en&start=9&tbnid=3HKf7ZWzlZ9CsM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=75&prev=/images%3Fq%3D21%2Bweek%2Bold%2Bfetus%26as_st%3Dy%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff) ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/138 "2009-06-01T05:49:49Z")
RNATB said “prior to the 20th week”. Those links are both past the 21st week. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/139 "2009-06-01T06:08:15Z")
Believe it or not I had anticipated the possibility of such a response from **RNATB** , but discounted it as I felt even he would not be so foolish as to try to split that ridiculous hair. But seeing as how you’ve chosen to leap into that void yourself, am I to understand then that it’s your contention that during the 20th week there is a veritable explosion of neurons, dendrites, axons and synapses occurring within the cortex, thus suddenly rendering fetuses not only capable of conscious thought and movement but of survival outside the womb? And if so, would you not deem the intentional destruction of at least that post twenty-week life to tantamount to murder? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280/140 "2009-06-01T06:13:27Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Believe it or not I had anticipated the possibility of such a response from **RNATB** , but discounted it as I felt even he would not be so foolish as to try to split that ridiculous hair. You said that he was wrong, he was not. > [@](#): > > But seeing as how you’ve chosen to do so, am I to understand then that it’s your contention that during the 20th week there is a veritable explosion of neurons, dendrites, axons and synapses occurring within the cortex, thus suddenly rendering fetuses not only capable of conscious thought and movement but of survival outside the womb? > > And if so, would you not deem the intentional destruction of at least that post twenty-week life to be murder? Yep, better to distract him. Maybe he will not notice that you were hopelessly wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-performed-abortions-shot-to-death/498280.md?page=8)