# Doctor Who Revival S8E4 -- Listen (boxed spoilers until it airs on the West Coast) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 13, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382 "2014-09-13T12:36:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/41 "2014-09-14T23:22:34Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Wow, I guess I missed that dialog. Thank you. You can be excused for not paying attention to those bits, though. Because in 90% of popular fiction (and 100% of _Doctor Who_ episodes before “Listen”) those exchanges would be meaningless reassurances, meant to justify the characters’ continued non-belief in the monster and ramp up the tension until the big reveal. And we, the audience, don’t much care whether they think the noises outside are from the wind in the trees, or those kids next door up to no good, or whatever placeholder bullshit the scriptwriter decided to use this time, because _we know there’s really a monster_. Except this time there wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/42 "2014-09-15T01:23:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So why does not adult Doctor recognize the soldier when Clara sets up the perimeter under Rupert’s bed? Or he’s thousands of years old and simply forgot. Or, the little boy was a different Gallifreyan. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/43 "2014-09-15T02:27:36Z")
That episode was wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/44 "2014-09-15T02:42:34Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Or, the little boy was a different Gallifreyan. No, it’s him. The TARDIS was taking her to people connected with her. ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/45 "2014-09-15T03:42:13Z")
If the crying little boy in the bed (whose ankle Clara grabbed) is the once and future Doctor, then the 12th Doctor didn’t recognize the plastic soldier because it was relatively new. The soldier Clara gave child-Doctor had been in Orson’s family for a while and looked well-traveled when by that time. Twelve didn’t recognize/react to the soldier Clara gave Rupert because it was just some toy she pulled out of a box. There’s a difference between going, “Hey, I had one of those as a kid!” and going, “OMG! That’s my toy that I had as a kid!” Clara’s no longer the Impossible Girl, but the Preposterous Girl. :rolleyes: My intentionally ridiculous, over-the-top theory about Orson’s ancestry which, if it turns out to be true, I will be as stunned as anyone: Orson didn’t recognize Clara because he’s not _her_ descendant. He didn’t inherit the toy soldier from her. He is the Doctor’s and Danny’s descendant and inherited the toy from Twelve. Why does Orson look like Danny? Orson is a Time Lord and the regeneration that meets Clara “actualised” Danny’s face from the many facial aspects saved to his extensive memory banks.It looks like the Corsair wasn’t the only one who was a bad girl. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/46 "2014-09-15T04:06:46Z")
I love my wife - simWife - Where are they? sim - the end of the universe… simWife - where’s the restaurant? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/47 "2014-09-15T11:13:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yeah, the deep philospophical musings of last week’s Robin Hood adventure and now this. This all one tone, one theme is so tiresome. You mean the episode framed by the Doctor’s hand-wringing about whether or not he’s a good person? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/48 "2014-09-15T11:31:19Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > You mean the episode framed by the Doctor’s hand-wringing about whether or not he’s a good person? No, that was _Into the Dalek_, an episode before. I was referencing the last week _Robots …_, which was the one that had some people complaining that they should tone down the constant comedy and that it is too silly. If anything they are intentionally playing with mixing up the tones and styles, doing variations on established forms. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/49 "2014-09-15T15:11:01Z")
12 minutes into this episode, I told my wife, “I don’t know if this episode will fall apart at the end, but it’s already better than anything this season.” While I’m still not sure if I like the ending, I stick by my assessment. A very, very good episode. This is what I like Dr. Who to be. The horror elements were great. The time travel elements were great. (Sometimes I feel like the writers forget the TARDIS exists outside of the first 5 minutes and last 5 minutes of the show.) The character moments were good. I’m really liking Capaldi, particularly his offhand random remarks (“She has such a wide face, she needs 3 mirrors”). I also really like the dynamic between him and Clara. (“Sit!”) I like that he seems to have lost his cockiness, though not his drive or his knowledge. He sits around on the TARDIS thinking about stuff, wondering what might be out there. He questions himself (after the events of Day of the Doctor and Time of the Doctor, that seems earned), but doesn’t sulk or pout about it. I like it. I think Orson did recognize Clara as his great-grandmother. Why else would he give her his “family heirloom”? He was just being coy, perhaps in hopes of not creating any paradoxes (he was trained as a time-traveler, after all). (Also, “Orson”? Oswin? Oswald? not a coincidence, I think) There was definitely _something_ non-human under that blanket. We caught a quick, blurry glimpse of it. Anyone get a screen grab? The only complaint I can give is that it did feel like ground Moffat has covered before. Again with creatures playing with perception (The Angels, The Silence), again with fear of the dark (Silence in the Library). But somehow it still felt (mostly) fresh. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/50 "2014-09-15T16:24:37Z")
OK, so the Doctor’s Monster Under The Bed turns out to be Clara. Was Clara also Thing Under The Blanket? Doc did warn her about encountering her past self, so when he insisted that no one look at TUTB, it wasn’t just for young Pink’s benefit. Doc knew that both Claras beholding themselves would be a double whammy in the space-time continuum or some such, even though she did see herself leaving the bar when she returned to her date with Pink. /shrug Was Clara also the one who wrote LISTEN on the chalkboard? It seemed like there was a few minutes between her re-entering the capsule and the Doctor discovering the word. Clara does like to give the Doctor a taste of his own medicine by retaining details only she knows, like she did with the previous model (Run, you clever boy). **Eyebrows of Doom** , the John Hurt footage was the Warrior Doctor approaching the shack where the Doomsday Weapon was stored. I don’t recall it being in the 50th anniversary show, so I think they just recycled a scene that got cut from that episode, to good effect. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/51 "2014-09-15T16:44:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No, that was _Into the Dalek_, an episode before. > > I was referencing the last week _Robots …_, which was the one that had some people complaining that they should tone down the constant comedy and that it is too silly. > > If anything they are intentionally playing with mixing up the tones and styles, doing variations on established forms. Fair enough. The thing is, I really REALLY want to love Capaldi as the Doctor. I’m a big fan of his. But it’s just not working for me, and I’m having trouble articulating why. I’m in the minority around here, which is fine. I don’t mind that. I also thought Matt Smith did a great job but was largely let down by the poor writing. I guess it just doesn’t work for me, and we’ll have to leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/52 "2014-09-15T16:47:46Z")
Honestly, I turned off this episode 20 minutes in because it was just plain boring me, and it struck me as nothing more than a retread of the Silence from a few years ago. “What if we’re _never_ alone?” sort of loses its shock value once you’ve already demonstrated that this is literally true. Maybe I’ll finish watching it later. I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/53 "2014-09-15T17:16:16Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > There was definitely _something_ non-human under that blanket. We caught a quick, blurry glimpse of it. Anyone get a screen grab? I just went and made [one](http://www.imagebam.com/image/2b6d80351500354.jpg). Yeah, it was out of focus. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/54 "2014-09-15T17:25:21Z")
> [@minionkat](#): > > So, is Pink a descendant of the Doctor? No. > [@](#): > > Also, there was the Doctor’s line “Dad trick” when he put young Rupert to sleep. Since it was established with the very first _Doctor Who_ episode ever that the Doctor was a grandfather that implies he has also been a father. He’s had kids, and anyone who has had kids knows something about getting them to settle down and sleep. The Doctor also did something similar in “Closing Time” when interacting with both Alfie/Stormageddon and some adults. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/55 "2014-09-15T17:27:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Well so Clara is now the impossible girl who has helped the Doctor out randomly throughout his entire working life, PLUS the person who gave him his first push towards becoming The Doctor? > > At this rate, they’re going to end up revealing that Clara is… > > actually the Doctor’s mother. After all, we all, always have our mother looking over us - which is what Clara does. The Doctor’s mother is named Verity, not Clara. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/56 "2014-09-15T17:28:48Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Or, the little boy was a different Gallifreyan. Ooo! I like that! Maybe it was the Master Clara spoke to! Naw… ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/57 "2014-09-15T17:38:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The Doctor’s mother is named Verity, not Clara. Wait, what? Unless you’re referring figuratively to Verity Lambert as the “mother of Doctor Who,” then I think I missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/58 "2014-09-15T17:45:22Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > Wait, what? > > Unless you’re referring figuratively to Verity Lambert as the “mother of Doctor Who,” then I think I missed something. It was mentioned by 10 when he put his time lord personality and memories into a pocket watch and assumed a human life as an English schoolteacher. When his girlfriend (I always think of her as Daisy Steiner from Spaced) was pressing him about his past he mentioned that his mother was Verity and his father was Sydney. Both named for Verity Lambert and Sydney Newman. In any case, it was a false memory so I don’t think it’s his actual mothers name. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/59 "2014-09-15T17:54:13Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > It was mentioned by 10 when he put his time lord personality and memories into a pocket watch and assumed a human life as an English schoolteacher. When his girlfriend (I always think of her as Daisy Steiner from Spaced) was pressing him about his past he mentioned that his mother was Verity and his father was Sydney. Both named for Verity Lambert and Sydney Newman. In any case, it was a false memory so I don’t think it’s his actual mothers name. No, probably not. I think his mother was the unnamed woman who appeared silently behind Rassilon in “The End of Time.” I missed the “Verity and Sydney” line, though. I’ll have to go back and watch “Human Nature” and “The Family of Blood” again to spot them. Oh, darn, I have to watch two excellent Ten episodes again! However will I cope? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/60 "2014-09-15T18:04:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Honestly, I turned off this episode 20 minutes in because it was just plain boring me, and it struck me as nothing more than a retread of the Silence from a few years ago. “What if we’re _never_ alone?” sort of loses its shock value once you’ve already demonstrated that this is literally true… Correct me with a cite if I’m wrong, but the Silence didn’t fit the idea of us never being alone. Granted, Silence did match the idea of something so good at hiding it could never be seen. (or rather that you’d never _remember_ you’d seen them). But the idea that such an unseen presence was _always_ with you was the new bit. Something old, something new. YMMV on if the new was new enough to forgive the old. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382.md?page=4)