# Doctor Who Revival S8E4 -- Listen (boxed spoilers until it airs on the West Coast) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 13, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382 "2014-09-13T12:36:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/101 "2014-09-18T20:51:23Z")
OK, but how many times have we heard something like: “I’m not human.” “What are you?” “I’m a Time Lord.”? I’m sorry to sound cranky, but that equivalence has predominated throughout NewWho at least. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/102 "2014-09-18T21:01:08Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > So how could the father say, “He’ll never become a time lord at this rate” (or whatever it was exactly)? Unless he meant in the sense of “he’ll never get into the academy and he doesn’t want to join the army - what a loser, he’ll never be a man at this rate.” Or “he’ll never be a responsible adult”. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/103 "2014-09-18T21:08:22Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > OK, but how many times have we heard something like: “I’m not human.” “What are you?” “I’m a Time Lord.”? > > I’m sorry to sound cranky, but that equivalence has predominated throughout NewWho at least. “I’m an engineer” “I’m a Doctor” None of these things preclude me from being human as well - Based on my previous comment - “All Time Lords are Gallifreyan, but not all Gallifreyan are Time Lords” Saying he’s a “Time Lord” immediately qualifies him as a Gallifreyan to anyone that knows, and is not needed for anyone that doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/104 "2014-09-18T21:38:53Z")
In both old Who and nu Who they constantly use Time Lord as synonymous with Gallifreyan. I think it’s because, other than one [Tom Baker episode](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Invasion_of_Time_%28TV_story%29), they never had an episode with non Time Lord Gallifreyans, or even mentioned them. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/105 "2014-09-18T21:51:15Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > OK, but how many times have we heard something like: “I’m not human.” “What are you?” “I’m a Time Lord.”? > > I’m sorry to sound cranky, but that equivalence has predominated throughout NewWho at least. I suspect that it’s assumed that all Gallifreyan’s will/should become a Time Lord. But, technically speaking there is always the chance that some of them don’t. I think that the ones who don’t become Time Lords, fail the test of looking into the Void, and subsequently go mad or commit suicide or something. So, of any Gallifreyans that are adult, (mostly) rational, and active in the world, they’re all Time Lords. Non-Time Lords are either children or dead to the world if not plain off dead. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/106 "2014-09-18T22:04:53Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I suspect that it’s assumed that all Gallifreyan’s will/should become a Time Lord. But, technically speaking there is always the chance that some of them don’t. I think that the ones who don’t become Time Lords, fail the test of looking into the Void, and subsequently go mad or commit suicide or something. So, of any Gallifreyans that are adult, (mostly) rational, and active in the world, they’re all Time Lords. Non-Time Lords are either children or dead to the world if not plain off dead. Going strictly by TV episodes Gallifreyans are split between Time Lords and Outsiders. Edit, or I guess going by this episode there are also non Time Lord soldiers. Going by other sources (which I’ve never hear nor read), [it gets more complicated](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gallifreyan). I’m not sure though if audio productions and proses are considered cannon or not. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/107 "2014-09-19T02:20:24Z")
There isn’t really an official cannon for _Who_ in the sense modern fans usually use the term. Certainly everything on TV is considered cannon, however contradictory, but the BBC has never declared _anything_ cannon and the TV writers/showrunners have freely borrowed from the extended universe novels and audio productions when it suits them. That ranges from entire plots (“Human Nature”/“Family of Blood”) to characters to references to them in minisodes (“The Night of the Doctor” where Eight rattles off the names of several companions from the audio stories, which arguably brings them into cannon. If you consider BBC-produced minisodes on the web to be cannon. Not everyone does.) The TV movie with the regeneration from Seven to Eight has long been called cannon by the BBC although there is definitely a segment of fandom that wishes it wasn’t. Then there’s a bunch of early stuff where the TV episodes are lost that are considered cannon but are unobtainable now and reside only in the memories of people over the age of 50. The _audio_ from those episodes exists, as do stills, scripts, and other artifacts, but it’s cannon material that doesn’t even exist anymore in it’s originally intended form. In other words, the answer to "what is cannon in _Doctor Who?"_ is so fuzzy as to be near meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/108 "2014-09-19T14:04:22Z")
CANON = collection of documents considered official CANNON = big metal tube that goes BOOM ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/109 "2014-09-19T14:13:42Z")
> [@Toucanna](#): > > My intentionally ridiculous, over-the-top theory about Orson’s ancestry which, if it turns out to be true, I will be as stunned as anyone: > > Orson didn’t recognize Clara because he’s not _her_ descendant. He didn’t inherit the toy soldier from her. He is the Doctor’s and Danny’s descendant and inherited the toy from Twelve. Why does Orson look like Danny? Orson is a Time Lord and the regeneration that meets Clara “actualised” Danny’s face from the many facial aspects saved to his extensive memory banks.It looks like the Corsair wasn’t the only one who was a bad girl. WAG: Orson is [spoiler]not descended from Clara nor the Doctor. He’s descended from Jenny, the Doctor’s daughter. Or Capt. Jack had a dalliance with Danny’s (grand?)mother; the man does want to nail anything that moves.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/110 "2014-09-19T17:18:59Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Going strictly by TV episodes Gallifreyans are split between Time Lords and Outsiders. Edit, or I guess going by this episode there are also non Time Lord soldiers. > > Going by other sources (which I’ve never hear nor read), [it gets more complicated](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gallifreyan). I’m not sure though if audio productions and proses are considered cannon or not. I like to think that, somewhere below the High Council, are a subclass of Time Lords who perform manual labor to keep the place running. Although they’re technically Time Lords, they bristle at being referred to as such and prefer to be addressed by their occupation. Similar to a Sergeant in the Army being addressed as “Sir”. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/111 "2014-09-20T00:12:57Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > I like to think that, somewhere below the High Council, are a subclass of Time Lords who perform manual labor to keep the place running. Although they’re technically Time Lords, they bristle at being referred to as such and prefer to be addressed by their occupation. Similar to a Sergeant in the Army being addressed as “Sir”. Like the two guys in the TARDIS repair shop at the beginning of “Name of the Doctor”. ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/112 "2014-09-20T01:15:26Z")
Somehow, I doubt the couple in the barn are the Doctor’s parents. They did seem like a married couple, but didn’t give off all that parental a vibe (although the woman, at least, did sound compassionate). The phrase “the other boys” seems to suggest a pre-Academy boys’ school (which isn’t all that far off British culture; I always saw Time Lords as being uber-Brits). So my guess is that they’re the school’s headmaster and headmistress. Or, if the Doctor was an orphan, the owners of the orphanage. Somehow, though, I don’t think the Doc was an orphan by that point. Maybe he was thinking, “If only the term were over and I were home with Mum and Dad, they’d make it okay…” I’m also rather intrigued by the exchange, “Why does he have to run away crying all the time?” “You know why.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/113 "2014-09-20T03:24:05Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Like the two guys in the TARDIS repair shop at the beginning of “Name of the Doctor”. Exactly! Forgot about them. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/114 "2014-09-21T08:06:54Z")
> [@Hermione](#): > > I’m also rather intrigued by the exchange, “Why does he have to run away crying all the time?” “You know why.” Because he’s scared of the dark and doesn’t want the other kids to know. Hey, it beats wetting the bed. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/115 "2014-09-21T08:46:04Z")
Well, that was incoherent drivel. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/116 "2014-09-21T20:42:55Z")
Clara was the one who said he was scared of the dark and didn’t want the other kids to know. That was in the friggin’ episode, how can that be incoherent? As for wetting the bed, that’s an alternative explanation why he would not want to share a room with other boys in a home or school. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/117 "2014-09-21T20:53:35Z")
I think he meant the episode, not your post. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382/118 "2014-09-21T21:26:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think he meant the episode, not your post. I did! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-revival-s8e4-listen-boxed-spoilers-until-it-airs-on-the-west-coast/698382.md?page=5)