# Doctor Who Series 10 ongoing discussion (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543 "2017-04-16T03:38:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/61 "2017-04-30T20:41:00Z")
Yeah usually the complaint about the bad episodes is that the science makes no sense. I don’t even understand why anyone would pay attention to that. Everything that happens in every episode is magic vaguely disguised as super advanced science, expecting it to make sense is foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/62 "2017-04-30T20:55:00Z")
It’s a balance, as **Infovore** ’s comment illustrates. 1. It’s a sign of a bad episode that you notice bad science. If the episode is otherwise good you are too wrapped up to notice that, unless it is really offensively bad. Bringing us to - 2. Some bad science is so offensively bad, so grossly inconsistent with the rules of the Whoniverse (the real world’s rules being immaterial), that it takes you out of the episode. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/63 "2017-04-30T21:18:36Z")
Yeah. The premise of Thin Ice makes no sense when you stop and think about it, since the creature’s droppings can’t possibly contain more energy than it ingests, so eating Regency urchins is never going to power a steel mill, let alone a starship. But whatever, the science was not really what the episode was about; it was a reluctant dragon story, and you just accept the dodgy mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/64 "2017-04-30T21:33:15Z")
It’s always a balance, but if the resolution of the plot depends on egregiously bad science, that’s when you roll your eyes. If say the crux of the plot was a stranded alien wanted to leave Earth by powering his ship with _kaiju_ urchin shit, I’d probably complain that it was poor writing. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/65 "2017-04-30T21:47:38Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Yeah usually the complaint about the bad episodes is that the science makes no sense. I don’t even understand why anyone would pay attention to that. Everything that happens in every episode is magic vaguely disguised as super advanced science, expecting it to make sense is foolishness. Saying “but it’s magic” is never an excuse. In good fantasy writing, magic has rules, and stories have internal logic and a consistent, coherent world. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/66 "2017-05-01T13:19:38Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Well, the overall plot isn’t that strong, the villain is a little undercooked, the aftermath is implausible and I still haven’t figured out how they got air to the diving suits, but the tone is perfect, the dialogue crackles, and most importantly the characters are just right: the Doctor and Bill as protagonists are pitched exactly as they ought to be. And Nardole’s line about putting coffee in the tea was great. I thought at first they had air lines, but then realized it was just ropes. :smack: And while I’ll take your word that the dialogue crackled, I struggled again to understand nearly every word Bill said. And this time there were parts of the Doctor’s dialogue I couldn’t understand either. Her accent is rubbing off on him? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/67 "2017-05-01T13:20:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Saying “but it’s magic” is never an excuse. In good fantasy writing, magic has rules, and stories have internal logic and a consistent, coherent world. I’m not saying “but it’s magic” I’m saying “It’s no less plausible than absolutely anything else that happens on the show, including the main premise”. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/68 "2017-05-01T15:13:17Z")
My problem with this episode is that it just seemed a rehash of _The Beast Below_. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/69 "2017-05-01T15:24:08Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > My problem with this episode is that it just seemed a rehash of _The Beast Below_. I kind of thought that too, but given that I like Twelve and Bill a hell of a lot more than Eleven and Amy (never was an Amy fan–something about her annoys me), I greatly prefer this version. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/70 "2017-05-02T08:35:42Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > My problem with this episode is that it just seemed a rehash of _The Beast Below_. I thought the same, which was particularly annoying given the commonalities with _The Beast Below_ in the previous episode. I was half-expecting the creature to be a starwhale. Anyone else think we’ll be seeing the name “Peregrine Sutcliffe” again? ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/71 "2017-05-02T11:54:51Z")
I was glad the writer remembered that the Doctor had been to this Frost Fair. (With River Song, actually–it’s mentioned in “A Good Man Goes to War”.) “So how do we stay out of trouble?” Pity there wasn’t another companion along–they would have been rolling on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/72 "2017-05-02T12:28:32Z")
I don’t care for **Who** , but happened to see this episode under _force majeure_ at a friend’s. The use of David Cameron as the villain was amusing, but what modern person would imagine there was slavery in 19th century London ? It was nearly half a century since it had been declared **[illegal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_v_Stewart)**. The pretense that about half of London was black was bizarre; and if so why were there no black villains ? Weirdest of all, apart from the syrupy ending with all the cute little urchins given the lord’s wealth — just like a communist wet-dream — to make what Bierce called '_A Woman Holiday’_ was the undetected presence for centuries of a vast moaning creature ( chained ? really ? the history of restricted bodily confinement suggests madness, a shutting down and early death for the poor thing ) under the river. How deep do the writers imagine sweet **[Thames](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Thames)** flows ? Now, the Old Father is small compared to the great American and African rivers, being but around 215 miles; obviously the depth varies enormously from place to place, tide to tide, time to time, but low tide is generally constant. In 1814 there were 5 or 6 bridges, but 3 were upriver Putney, Kew, and Richmond ( and Putney at least was wooden ). Until the 18th century capitalist corruption ensured there was no alternative to Old London Bridge — one of the world’s greatest man-made structures — so there was Old London Bridge, and Westminster, and Blackfriars. Old London Bridge no longer had the array of houses and shops ( and workshops ) on top, but it was too big to be the one shown. I’m guessing it was Westminster or Blackfriars which are pretty close, and stone. The 1683 Frost Fair ranged from the **[Temple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple,_London)** to Southwark ( but there wasn’t a bridge at Southwark [pron _Suffark_] until 1819. There is a rather technical list of depths **[here](http://www.justanswer.com/general/0aqs1-deep-river-thames.html)**, unfortunately in metres, ranging from a yard at Richmond unsuitable for container traffic, to around 65 feet in the estuary, where the river hits the German Ocean. London Bridge and Westminster Bridge are around 6 foot at low tide. More than enough for even a short-sighted person to notice Leviathan on the bed of the river; particularly with endless watermen ( the taxis of times past ) darting around in skiffs and lighters non-stop not to mention shipping. I dunno what effect, if any, the great **[Thames Barrier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Barrier)** ( 1984 built to prevent flooding ) had on the tide levels. This is more than magic. Pages on bridges in London, most of which were pulled down for progress: **[01](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge)**, **[02](http://www.engineering-timelines.com/why/bridgesOfLondon/bridgesLondon_08.asp)**, **[03](http://spitalfieldslife.com/2013/01/05/the-bridges-of-old-london/)**, **[04](http://www.lonwalk.ndirect.co.uk/bridsum.htm)** ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/73 "2017-05-02T12:28:36Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > I was glad the writer remembered that the Doctor had been to this Frost Fair. (With River Song, actually–it’s mentioned in “A Good Man Goes to War”.) > > “So how do we stay out of trouble?” Pity there wasn’t another companion along–they would have been rolling on the ground. There _was_ another companion along–Pete! I can’t believe no one is talking about how cruelly poor Pete was treated in this episode. He was my favorite companion ever, and now it’s like he never even existed! ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/74 "2017-05-02T12:32:15Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > There _was_ another companion along–Pete! I can’t believe no one is talking about how cruelly poor Pete was treated in this episode. He was my favorite companion ever, and now it’s like he never even existed! Here’s to Pete! That whole scene reminded me of when Deadman met Kara. > **[Back Issue Box: Christmas With The Super-Heroes #2](http://comicboxcommentary.blogspot.com/2010/12/back-issue-box-christmas-with-super.html)** > > A blog about all things Supergirl, with a healthy dose of Superman and Legion ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/75 "2017-05-02T21:21:51Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > I don’t care for **Who** , but happened to see this episode under _force majeure_ at a friend’s. > The use of David Cameron as the villain was amusing, but what modern person would imagine there was slavery in 19th century London ? It was nearly half a century since it had been declared **[illegal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_v_Stewart)**. The pretense that about half of London was black was bizarre; and if so why were there no black villains ? > Weirdest of all, apart from the syrupy ending with all the cute little urchins given the lord’s wealth — just like a communist wet-dream — to make what Bierce called '_A Woman Holiday’_ was the undetected presence for centuries of a vast moaning creature ( chained ? really ? the history of restricted bodily confinement suggests madness, a shutting down and early death for the poor thing ) under the river. How deep do the writers imagine sweet **[Thames](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Thames)** flows ? > Now, the Old Father is small compared to the great American and African rivers, being but around 215 miles; obviously the depth varies enormously from place to place, tide to tide, time to time, but low tide is generally constant. > > In 1814 there were 5 or 6 bridges, but 3 were upriver Putney, Kew, and Richmond ( and Putney at least was wooden ). Until the 18th century capitalist corruption ensured there was no alternative to Old London Bridge — one of the world’s greatest man-made structures — so there was Old London Bridge, and Westminster, and Blackfriars. Old London Bridge no longer had the array of houses and shops ( and workshops ) on top, but it was too big to be the one shown. I’m guessing it was Westminster or Blackfriars which are pretty close, and stone. > > The 1683 Frost Fair ranged from the **[Temple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple,_London)** to Southwark ( but there wasn’t a bridge at Southwark [pron _Suffark_] until 1819. > > There is a rather technical list of depths **[here](http://www.justanswer.com/general/0aqs1-deep-river-thames.html)**, unfortunately in metres, ranging from a yard at Richmond unsuitable for container traffic, to around 65 feet in the estuary, where the river hits the German Ocean. London Bridge and Westminster Bridge are around 6 foot at low tide. > > More than enough for even a short-sighted person to notice Leviathan on the bed of the river; particularly with endless watermen ( the taxis of times past ) darting around in skiffs and lighters non-stop not to mention shipping. I dunno what effect, if any, the great **[Thames Barrier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Barrier)** ( 1984 built to prevent flooding ) had on the tide levels. > This is more than magic. > > Pages on bridges in London, most of which were pulled down for progress: > > **[01](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge)**, **[02](http://www.engineering-timelines.com/why/bridgesOfLondon/bridgesLondon_08.asp)**, **[03](http://spitalfieldslife.com/2013/01/05/the-bridges-of-old-london/)**, **[04](http://www.lonwalk.ndirect.co.uk/bridsum.htm)** I liked the bit where he punched the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/76 "2017-05-07T08:35:25Z")
Well, the ending made no sense whatsoever, but that was terrifically creepy. I’m really enjoying this season. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/77 "2017-05-07T09:13:54Z")
It’s great to have a story arc that doesn’t focus on how special the companion is, at the expense of actually giving her a character. And judging from how the pianist played “Pop Goes The Weasel” on hearing that some kids have died, I’m assuming that’s Missy imprisoned in the vault. ---
**Author:** ![TwoCarrotSnowman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twocarrotsnowman/32/15879_2.png) [@TwoCarrotSnowman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoCarrotSnowman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/78 "2017-05-07T09:54:32Z")
I missed that little detail. I found myself wondering if the vault is actually a TARDIS, “impounded” in some way, with someone under house arrest inside. Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/79 "2017-05-07T16:17:25Z")
I like Bill, so far, but I’m getting a really strong River Song vibe from her. Pearl Mackie even looks like Alex Kingston. (Not a bad thing, because - and I realize I’m in a minority, here - I really really liked River.) > [@MrAtoz](#): > > There _was_ another companion along–Pete! I can’t believe no one is talking about how cruelly poor Pete was treated in this episode. He was my favorite companion ever, and now it’s like he never even existed! He quit before they got famous. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543/80 "2017-05-07T16:36:23Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I like Bill, so far, but I’m getting a really strong River Song vibe from her. Pearl Mackie even looks like Alex Kingston. (Not a bad thing, because - and I realize I’m in a minority, here - I really really liked River.) I really like River too, and I really like Bill, but I’m getting more of a Susan vibe from her (the way they keep emphasizing the “grandfather” thing, and the fact that the Doctor has a photo of her on his desk. I wonder if she isn’t somehow going to end up being a future regeneration of Susan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-10-ongoing-discussion-open-spoilers/784543.md?page=5)