# Doctor Who Series 9 discussion (spoilers as it airs) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754 "2015-09-19T11:40:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/561 "2015-11-29T19:07:54Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > I don’t know if I agree with this (there are a lot of fans out there who’ve never seen Classic Who) but I do think it’s a good idea to at least know the roots of the show. Watch a few episodes of the classic stuff (I suggest Tom Baker’s Fourth and Pertwee’s Third, myself) at minimum. If nothing else, you’ll know what older fans are talking about when they mention the truly “special” special effects. 😃 Watching the older ones certainly helps, and there’s a lot of terrific stuff in the original Who {as well as some utter dross} but I dislike the “not a true fan” stuff. [QUOTE=The Hamster King] Furthermore, we know from the Fourth Doctor that Gallifrey has a repository of the memories of dead Time Lords called the Matrix. When the Fourth Doctor was president of Gallifrey, he actually had to go into the Matrix and it was a deadly, surreal dreamscape. [/QUOTE] I think there was definitely a reference to _The Deadly Assassin_ in _Heaven Sent_, as well as a clue to where he was: _TDA_ was another Doctor Alone story, and in both they were trapped in Time Lord generated artificial reailties and psychologically and physically tormented to breaking point. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/562 "2015-11-29T20:13:04Z")
I have just realised though that the Doctor could at least have saved wear and tear on his hands if he’d just brought the spade to the diamondanium wall. Or even the soup spoon. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/563 "2015-11-29T20:47:41Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I have just realised though that the Doctor could at least have saved wear and tear on his hands if he’d just brought the spade to the diamondanium wall. Or even the soup spoon. On each cycle by the time he knows the wall is there he’s trapped by the Veil and can’t backtrack. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/564 "2015-11-29T21:50:39Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > Not _seasons_ one through seven, _ **Doctors** _ One through Seven: Hartnell, Traughton, Pertwee, T.Baker, Davison, C.Baker, and McCoy! You cannot call yourself a fan without having seen them. As a fan, I’m of the opinion that you can safely skip McCoy. And Baker, C. And Davison… ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/565 "2015-11-29T22:30:36Z")
> [@Jack\_of\_Words](#): > > As a fan, I’m of the opinion that you can safely skip McCoy. And Baker, C. And Davison… Anyone catching up on the old stuff should start with Pertwee and the Unit Years, then Tom Baker up to Leela: that’ll tell them all they need to know, and they can catch up with Peter Davison, Patrick Troughton at their leisure, then McCoy, the rest of Tom Baker, and Hartnell and Colin Baker as they see fit. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/566 "2015-11-29T22:35:42Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > On each cycle by the time he knows the wall is there he’s trapped by the Veil and can’t backtrack. The Doctor has obviously never played any point-and-click adventure games, then: never discard _anything_ you pick up, no matter how useless it seems, until you get to the final puzzle chamber. Oh, it’s so _obvious_ now! Why did I drop the spoon when I could have Used it on the Diamondillium wall? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/567 "2015-11-29T22:53:31Z")
Well, some people are out saving the Universe on a daily basis. Others…well they play Farmville a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/568 "2015-11-29T23:24:48Z")
\> SPEAK TO VEIL - The Veil pauses… \> CONFESS SIN TO VEIL - Confess what to Veil? \> WHEN I WAS 12 I WET THE BED AND BLAMED THE DOG - The Veil shimmers and disappears. With a grinding of immense gears buried deep beneath your feet, the castle shudders into motion, levels turning like the cogs of an immense clock. Passageways shift as you feel the room move below your feet, and as you glance out the window you see windows whir past and towers rise and fall as each floor grinds slowly into new, labyrinthine configurations. You open the door through which you entered the room, to discover that the corridor has vanished and in its place is a cavernous draughty banqueting hall, a welcoming fire blazing in a vast stone grate. On a worn oak table in the centre of the hall there is a bowl of soup and a spoon. \> EAT SOUP - You eat the hot soup, and new strength flows into you. \> TAKE SPOON ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/569 "2015-11-29T23:29:57Z")
Who was saving the universe for the billions of years he was banging his hand against a wall? Will Time Lord fashion FINALLY dump the cowls? Will Timothy Dalton be back? ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/570 "2015-11-29T23:35:18Z")
**Penfeather** , your age is showing. But heck, I’d play that game. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/571 "2015-11-30T00:06:59Z")
How could the loop have ever started? A key part is the stars being in the wrong place for when he thinks he is, and his figuring out why that is. But when the whole thing started, the stars would have been exactly where he thought he was. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/572 "2015-11-30T00:10:49Z")
Considering that time advanced with each loop, the stars are wrong because they’ve moved since the last time he looked at them ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/573 "2015-11-30T00:12:55Z")
Was the portrait of Clara the same one he painted in the second scene of **Bells of Saint John?** eta -[never mind, it isn’t](http://media.tumblr.com/e3ce2973163fc7f1036cc7c7ac606276/tumblr_inline_mow04kAtQW1qz4rgp.jpg). But it should have been. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/574 "2015-11-30T01:26:07Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > How could the loop have ever started? A key part is the stars being in the wrong place for when he thinks he is, and his figuring out why that is. But when the whole thing started, the stars would have been exactly where he thought he was. Timeless decision theory. He came up with the whole thing as he lay dying after the first time. He knew that the castle was mechanistic, and so if he had the same responses, he’d behave the same way. And because he was a Time Lord, he could predict his future actions really, really well. So he crawled up, did the teleport thing, and scrawled out the word “BIRD”, knowing that having seen it, every future iteration of him would look at the wall and know what they had to do. Also, since there seems to be some confusion, the castle only resets its rooms. It doesn’t clean up the skulls, because they’re outside the castle. The stars keep going, because they’re outside the castle. The diamond wall is likewise outside the castle, or at least outside what it can reset. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/575 "2015-11-30T01:44:47Z")
Yes one assumes he figured it out without the stars clue and without the clothes there the first time and that once bird was there it cemented the outcome. Stars just made it suspicious to im a bit earlier. Stars that were outside the castle and outside the disc that he is inside of but still visible. And the skulls manage to spread out enough or decay quickly enough that his does not his head on them when he dives out after several million years of it … and the painting was old to begin with and never got any older. Uh … better to not overthink this. Trying to remember but did Me flip him the disc just before he teleported? ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/576 "2015-11-30T01:52:24Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > **penfeather** , your age is showing. But heck, i’d play that game. \> use spoon on wall ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/577 "2015-11-30T01:55:59Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > \> use spoon on wall I don’t know what “use” is. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/578 "2015-11-30T02:03:10Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I don’t know what “use” is. - The Veil sits down and starts singing about gold. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/579 "2015-11-30T03:07:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Trying to remember but did Me flip him the disc just before he teleported? I remember him giving it to her. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/580 "2015-11-30T03:53:02Z")
Okay, sat thru the previews. Cowls, yes. Dalton, no. Color me disappointed. When he first saw the Veil on TV, there was something with red bullet points projected on the wall next to it. What did it say? Why didn’t he (apparently) read it? Was it the rules of the game that I don’t usually bother reading, either? Even so, I know enough to keep objects I find, and that he could’ve finished faster if he tried STRIKE VEIL WITH SPADE. And doesn’t the TARDIS have some Plan B protocol to get itself out of such jams? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754.md?page=30)