# Doctor Who Series 9 discussion (spoilers as it airs) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754 "2015-09-19T11:40:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/681 "2015-12-07T00:26:35Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > And whatever John Simm’s Master did to Rassilon in _The End of Time_, it broke him from being a boomingly autocratic Timothy Dalton who vapourised people for disagreeing with him, to a bitter and impotent old man whose army won’t obey him. Go, Master! Pretty sure he killed him, forcing the regeneration? That could break anyone - being shown up as a fool in front of everyone. Surprised he is still boss, after that one. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/682 "2015-12-07T02:02:17Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Pretty sure he killed him, forcing the regeneration? That could break anyone - being shown up as a fool in front of everyone. Surprised he is still boss, after that one. Yeah, the last we saw of John Simm was marching into the time breach vengefully blasting Rassilon with energy bolts. That seems to have killed both of them, but if the Master came back as Missy and Rassilon was only dealt petty scheming old dude, then John Simm got the better of the bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/683 "2015-12-07T02:59:37Z")
Perhaps I just missed this, but I don’t understand the point of the prison the Doctor was in. The Veil killed him, and he crawled back to the teleporter and reconstituted himself over and over again to keep going. But he could have left at any time if he’d just revealed the secret of the Hybrid as it’s not a prison per se, but a reality intended to get you to confess some dark secret. But if the Veil kills you, what happens if you fall to it before you reveal your secret? Seems to me it would flat out kill you, but it was reiterated the point of the prison was to get you to reveal information, and not serve as a lethal chamber. But unless you stumble onto the secret on how to come back in again as the Doctor did with your last energy, isn’t that just what the castle is? I’m not seeing how it’s much else but a gas chamber of sorts. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/684 "2015-12-07T03:36:43Z")
It is supposed to be used by a Time Lord who is already dying, giving him/her a chance to make their peace with his/her secrets before they are all uploaded to the matrix. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/685 "2015-12-07T13:13:05Z")
I’m still confused on one point…or maybe I missed something…how would Clara and Me have known about the American diner from the Amy and Rory era? ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/686 "2015-12-07T13:14:13Z")
“Carol singers will be criticised” - ha 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/687 "2015-12-07T13:52:31Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > I’m still confused on one point…or maybe I missed something…how would Clara and Me have known about the American diner from the Amy and Rory era? Me has been watching and studying the Doctor for centuries. Plus, Clara has had free run of the TARDIS for the last year and probably found some reference to it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/688 "2015-12-07T16:05:24Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > HK called it. All. Kinda scary. \ ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/689 "2015-12-07T19:25:23Z")
So our DVR didn’t record the last bit of this episode. It cut off right at the point Me said that the chamelon circuit wasn’t working. What happened after that? (I gather from this thread that the graffiti dropped off.) ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/690 "2015-12-07T19:30:15Z")
from one of my favorite [sites](http://www.chakoteya.net/doctorwho/index.htm) ever (Ashildr is studying a Gallifreyan instruction manual.) ASHILDR: I don’t think I’ve got the Chameleon circuit working. The outer shell might be stuck as an American Diner. CLARA: Awesome. ASHILDR: Still no pulse? CLARA: Time isn’t healing. I am still frozen. ASHILDR: You know what that means? CLARA: It means my death is a fixed event. The universe depends on it happening. ASHILDR: I’m sorry. CLARA: Why? Why does everybody think I am so scared? We all face the raven in the end. That is the deal. If I go back to Gallifrey, they can put me back, right? On Trap Street, the moment they took me out? ASHILDR: Of course. CLARA: Mind you, seeing as I’m not actually ageing, there’s a tiny little bit of wiggle room, isn’t there? ASHILDR: Wiggle room? CLARA: Wiggle room. Yeah, you know, wiggle room. We could, er, you know, stop off on the way. (Clara sets coordinates.) ASHILDR: Where are we going? CLARA: Gallifrey. Like I said, Gallifrey. The long way round. (The American Diner whizzes through the Vortex.) (Meanwhile, back in Nevada, the Doctor is gazing at his old Tardis. Finally, he puts his hands on the doors and they open for him. The interior is empty, but once he enters it starts to power up. He puts down his guitar and goes up to the gallery, where a blackboard has Run, you clever boy, and be a Doctor written on it. He exchanges his black jacket for the lovely burgundy one. A sonic screwdriver materialises in its power socket, then flies across to where he catches it, Star Wars light sabre style, and tests it. Then he snaps his fingers and the doors close. The Doctor goes down the steps and sets the Tardis flying. As it dematerialises, all the paint is left behind, and the two Tardises cross paths in the Vortex.) ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/691 "2015-12-07T19:39:05Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I > If the choice was a real one–meaning that Clara’s losing her memory would have served the purpose just as well as having the Doctor lose his–then the explanation about the Doctor having to get over his unhealthy level of passion becomes pointless. To wit: If Clara had lost her memory, the Doctor would still have been just as enraged at the Timelords for their ‘find out what the Hybrid is’ gambit (which got Clara killed). Unhealthy passion: still fully intact. Point of Clara forgetting: none (that I can see). I think the choice was a real one. As the Doctor said, he knows he went too far. I think he finally realized, after all that, just how far he went, and that it wouldn’t be healthy for him to continue going that far. At least if Clara’s memory were wiped, she’d be alive, presumably having a happy life somewhere. I think he was more upset about her being killed due to the Time Lords’ machinations than by the thought of losing her while still having her be alive. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/692 "2015-12-07T19:55:10Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > But if the Veil kills you, what happens if you fall to it before you reveal your secret? Seems to me it would flat out kill you, but it was reiterated the point of the prison was to get you to reveal information, and not serve as a lethal chamber. But unless you stumble onto the secret on how to come back in again as the Doctor did with your last energy, isn’t that just what the castle is? I’m not seeing how it’s much else but a gas chamber of sorts. This is another answer from canon, but the Time Lords, particularly Rassilon, have a lot of experience with setting up elaborately death-dealing mazes in old castles and then having the Doctors stroll through them chatting. They knew just how tough to calibrate this one. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/693 "2015-12-07T21:56:39Z")
So is flat-out shooting that Time Lord general type just one of those ‘bad things’ the Doctor did out of his desire to save/avenge Clara? Because that was a pretty big one, to me, to the point that I spent some part of the episode wondering wether it would be undone, somehow. It certainly is a turning point for the character, no? And poor Ashildr. Spending a few billion years punching yourself out of a diamond prison must seem like a weekend out in the countryside with your well-meaning, but slightly dull relatives compared to her suffering. I mean, to be stuck with eighties fashion for half of eternity… (Seriously, what’s up with that look? She didn’t have a nose piercing last time we saw her, did she? And then the lipstick, big hair, leather jacket… Seems way too deliberate to just be a random choice, but I can’t for the life of me figure out what it might mean.) ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/694 "2015-12-07T22:06:53Z")
Before Twelve shot the General, he asked what regeneration he was on. Personally, I loved the regenerated General’s reaction upon realizing she was female again “ah, back to normal” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/695 "2015-12-07T22:09:09Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > (Seriously, what’s up with that look? She didn’t have a nose piercing last time we saw her, did she? And then the lipstick, big hair, leather jacket… Seems way too deliberate to just be a random choice, but I can’t for the life of me figure out what it might mean.) I need a new drug…one that one that won’t make me sick…one that wont make feel three billions years old…on that won’t make me feel thick… ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/696 "2015-12-07T22:34:37Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > Before Twelve shot the General, he asked what regeneration he was on. Personally, I loved the regenerated General’s reaction upon realizing she was female again “ah, back to normal” Yeah, and the Doctor called it the equivalent of giving him the flu. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/697 "2015-12-07T22:35:37Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > And poor Ashildr. Spending a few billion years punching yourself out of a diamond prison must seem like a weekend out in the countryside with your well-meaning, but slightly dull relatives compared to her suffering. I mean, to be stuck with eighties fashion for half of eternity… (Seriously, what’s up with that look? She didn’t have a nose piercing last time we saw her, did she? And then the lipstick, big hair, leather jacket… Seems way too deliberate to just be a random choice, but I can’t for the life of me figure out what it might mean.) Fashion is cyclical. That look is going to come back in 13 Billion years. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/698 "2015-12-07T22:53:51Z")
OK, since my evolution theory didn’t work, I’m going with a new one. Since Me didn’t cop to anything Gallifrey-destroying, and Twelve shrugged when asked if he could be half human, I’m thinking they’re leaving the Hybrid thing open to be resolved at a later time. Maybe Missy’s deal with the Daleks at the end of _The Witch’s Familiar_ was to make a baby with them. The Time Lords fought in the Time Wars, so they’re a “warrior race.” There’s your Hybrid. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/699 "2015-12-07T22:59:54Z")
Did they actually say that the hybrid would destroy Gallifrey, or just that it would stand in the ruins of Gallifrey? Because both Me and the Doctor did than in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754/700 "2015-12-07T23:19:16Z")
Can’t google the exact quote, but it said nothing about the Hybrid destroying Gallifrey, just that it would sacrifice a billion hearts and stand in the ruins of Gallifrey. The Time Lords just leapt to conclusions that it meant a warrior-tyrant on a throne of skulls. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-9-discussion-spoilers-as-it-airs/731754.md?page=36)