# Doctor Who Series Five: UK pace thread \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 3, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851 "2010-04-03T21:23:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/261 "2010-04-20T22:22:54Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, I like the fact that the Daleks know the Doctor’s weakness and got away. I was expecting the Doctor to save Earth, pull a trick out his sleeve and defeat the Daleks this time for good we really mean it this time no really, and they come back anyway. This is how I feel. The tension and character development wasn’t over what the Doctor would choose, but the fact that the Daleks had _figured out_ what the Doctor would do and could use it against him. Could the Doctor escape their trap? NO! He saved the Earth, as Amy pointed out, but the Earth was never the Daleks’ primary goal (or they would have just blown it up to begin with, but then the Doctor would DEFINITELY have destroyed them if he had to blow up the whole universe to do it!) Their goal was to lure the Doctor there, get him to testify so that the Progenitor machine could be activated, and then allow the new daleks to escape and rebuild the Dalek race. And they did it! They manipulated the Doctor perfectly! These are sneakier, subtler Daleks than we’ve seen before. And those were the “inferior ones”! (Though “subtler” isn’t the word that comes to mind for the new Daleks. Blech!) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/262 "2010-04-20T22:31:35Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > This is how I feel. The tension and character development wasn’t over what the Doctor would choose, but the fact that the Daleks had _figured out_ what the Doctor would do and could use it against him. Could the Doctor escape their trap? NO! He saved the Earth, as Amy pointed out, but the Earth was never the Daleks’ primary goal (or they would have just blown it up to begin with, but then the Doctor would DEFINITELY have destroyed them if he had to blow up the whole universe to do it!) Their goal was to lure the Doctor there, get him to testify so that the Progenitor machine could be activated, and then allow the new daleks to escape and rebuild the Dalek race. And they did it! They manipulated the Doctor perfectly! > > These are sneakier, subtler Daleks than we’ve seen before. And those were the “inferior ones”! (Though “subtler” isn’t the word that comes to mind for the new Daleks. Blech!) I wonder if the new pure ones would not be as sneaky. Then again, there are new Strategist Daleks… ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/263 "2010-04-21T00:52:20Z")
Mr. Lissar says: To me the first half of the show was far more interesting than the middle and end. In the beginning we get to try and figure out _how_ the Daleks survived, and _why_ they’re posing as war machines in WWII London. And then as it played out, even though we knew that the Doctor was right, we watched him grow more and more irrational to the point where he’s literally beating up a Dalek to illicit a confession from it. And while we watch this progression we’re doing it from the perspective of Amy and the WWII gang who don’t know anything about the Daleks, and we wonder if the Doctor has gone bonkers. There was enough build up to make us think that something happened when we weren’t watching, and maybe these Daleks are different, and just maybe the Doctor is being massively unjust. Of course he ends up being right, and I enjoyed the climax of that particular scene before the Daleks zapped off to their ship. After that it’s all explosions and jokes about tea and pastries. But his behavior up to that point is what I found exciting. When the Doctor asked Amy what hate looked like, I felt like the answer in this case should be the Doctor himself (again hearkening back to the 9th Doctor.) Good points about the Doctor being utterly tricked by the Daleks. They zing him and then get clean away. It could have been better demonstrated, but the fact that they pulled it off is enough of a twist to make it interesting. One thing that makes me happy about this conclusion is that the Daleks _are not dead_. It was cool for a while to have them cheat death, you know, once or twice, but it was getting really old. I wanted them to die off, at least for a few seasons, but I got the next best thing - the Daleks are _not_ extinct. It won’t be a surprise when we see them next, and it won’t require sketchy reasoning to explain how they managed to skip out on their genocide once again. They’re just another lurking menace in the universe. Mr. Lissar out. ---
**Author:** ![vdgg81](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@vdgg81](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vdgg81)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/264 "2010-04-21T02:00:30Z")
[QUOTE=Baron Greenback] What? Katy Manning is going to be in Sarah Jane Adventures, playing Jo Grant?? That’s unexpected in a pleasing way! [/QUOTE] That’s great news! Pertwee and Manning were my favorite TARDIS crew. Now, if only they could get the Brigadier to make an appearance on the new show… > [@aceplace57](#): > > Katy Manning > NSFW > [http://www.six-shooter.de/wp-content…anning0003.jpg](http://www.six-shooter.de/wp-content...anning0003.jpg) And she’s sexier in this picture than she ever was on the show! Does anybody know when this was taken? I have to assume it’s a pretty old picture by now. ---
**Author:** ![vdgg81](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@vdgg81](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vdgg81)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/265 "2010-04-21T02:43:47Z")
I’m sorry, everybody. This thing ended up much bigger than I first intended it to be. Still, I figured that if I can’t geek out in a **DW** thread, then when can I? > [@Merijeek](#): > > So…the assumption in any episode should be that the viewer has watched any and all episodes previously? > > -Joe Of course not. If I sounded like one of those fanboys that complain that throw-away line #57 of episode 3 of story 32S is in direct contradiction of throw-away line #6 of episode 5 of story 12B (_The Tyranny of The Terrible Thaumaturge_) I apologize. Continuity is a fine thing but I know it has its own and modest place, especially in an episodic show such as **Doctor Who**. However, there are some things that must be maintained from story to story because they’re fundamental to the nature of the show and this is true of any TV program. If in the middle of **Friends** Joey had revealed that he secretly always felt like a woman inside and started undergoing hormone treatments for his sex change nobody in the audience would be able to accept that because not only would it contradict everything we knew of Joey but it’d also change drastically the whole “feel” and tone of **Friends**. Much in the same way, having Hawkeye Pierce become an enthusiastic militarist would be very hard to swallow and make **M_A_S_H_** a new program altogether. On the other hand, if either Joey or Hawkeye received a letter from his respective father or mother with news from home nobody (or very few people) would care despite the fact that it had been established in a minor conversation “x” episodes before that that parent had died ten years previously (I have no idea if this is true or not). That’s because in neither case this revelation would change how we perceive the character in a fundamental fashion; the existence of their parents just wasn’t that important to either show. In many ways **Doctor Who** is as episodic as a sit-com but as we saw even those have a few essentials that must kept the same every week- in **DW** they are: there must be both time-travel and space-travel (police box optional); we must have companions; the Doctor must be the Doctor. If we think that we’re now up to our eleventh Doctor and that the character changed so much from incarnation to incarnation it’s remarkable how stable some of his traits are. The Doctor is brilliant and likes to talk; he abhors violence even though he’s willing to use it when he feels it’s necessary; he values strangeness and diversity in and of themselves and appreciates the same sensibility in others; he loves freedom and despises those who try to diminish it, he admires intelligence but esteems courage and resilience more and deems compassion even greater a quality; he participates and interferes, when in doubt he prefers action over inaction and finds omission morally reprehensible; he loves Earth above all planets and humans more than any species for some unknown reason of his own; he values life absolutely. To me the Doctor must present these characteristics. You can’t change them without changing the fundamental nature of the show and its spirit. To my way of seeing, this guy just wouldn’t even consider destroying the Earth no matter what, much less to stop a bunch of villains whom he already defeated countless times before. R.T.D. understood this, so in order to get that big confrontation near the first season’s finale and to have this same dilemma be both credible and suspenseful he first established that that (Ninth) version of the Doctor was deeply traumatized by the Time War and felt terrible guilt over his actions in it. Then he upped the stakes even more: this time Earth would be gone no matter what the Doctor did, it was just a question of who’d destroy it: himself or the Daleks. When the Doctor finally realizes he’ll never be able to do it, that the Earth will be destroyed, he will be killed and the Daleks will go on to try and conquer the universe, that is presented to us as a victory. That’s because that moment reassures the Doctor that no matter what had happened before it hadn’t turned him into a monster nor had it changed him so much he wasn’t the same person anymore and it’s supposed to be reassuring to the audience for the same reasons. Many people would disagree with this choice but it’s clearly the only of which the character is capable. My examples on the post you quoted were meant to illustrate just this point, not as evidence of “error” or “inconsistency” on the show’s continuity but a more fundamental misunderstanding in regards to its main character’s personality. **P.S.** My esteem for Russell T. Davies as a writer went up as I typed this post. It’s incredible how much _The Parting of The Ways_ is enriched by the revelations in _The End of Time_. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/266 "2010-04-21T03:01:38Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, I like the fact that the Daleks know the Doctor’s weakness and got away. Exactly. It wasn’t about tension, it was about witnessing the Doctor’s agony at being played. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/267 "2010-04-21T03:51:04Z")
There’s several more photos with Katy and the Dalek. Google will find them easily. By todays standards the pictures aren’t a big deal. They’re tastefully done. > [@](#): > > In 1977 she posed naked with an original Dalek prop for the glamour magazine Girl Illustrated. She laughed the furore off, stating “You’d have to pretty well put me under a microscope to see anything!” Upon being informed of the photos Jon Pertwee was quoted as saying “Typical Katy!” > **[Katy Manning](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Katy_Manning)** > > Catherine "Katy" Ann Manning\[1\] (born on 14 October 1946\[2\] in Guildford, Surrey, England) played companion Jo Grant in Doctor Who beginning with Terror of the Autons and ending with The Green Death, before reprising the role for Big Finish's audio... > [@vdgg81](#): > > That’s great news! Pertwee and Manning were my favorite TARDIS crew. Now, if only they could get the Brigadier to make an appearance on the new show… > > And she’s sexier in this picture than she ever was on the show! Does anybody know when this was taken? I have to assume it’s a pretty old picture by now. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/268 "2010-04-23T02:10:33Z")
> [@vdgg81](#): > > I’m sorry, everybody. This thing ended up much bigger than I first intended it to be. Still, I figured that if I can’t geek out in a **DW** thread, then when can I? > Of course not. If I sounded like one of those fanboys that complain that throw-away line #57 of episode 3 of story 32S is in direct contradiction of throw-away line #6 of episode 5 of story 12B (_The Tyranny of The Terrible Thaumaturge_) I apologize. Continuity is a fine thing but I know it has its own and modest place, especially in an episodic show such as **Doctor Who**. > > However, there are some things that must be maintained from story to story because they’re fundamental to the nature of the show and this is true of any TV program. If in the middle of **Friends** Joey had revealed that he secretly always felt like a woman inside and started undergoing hormone treatments for his sex change nobody in the audience would be able to accept that because not only would it contradict everything we knew of Joey but it’d also change drastically the whole “feel” and tone of **Friends**. Much in the same way, having Hawkeye Pierce become an enthusiastic militarist would be very hard to swallow and make **M_A_S_H_** a new program altogether. On the other hand, if either Joey or Hawkeye received a letter from his respective father or mother with news from home nobody (or very few people) would care despite the fact that it had been established in a minor conversation “x” episodes before that that parent had died ten years previously (I have no idea if this is true or not). That’s because in neither case this revelation would change how we perceive the character in a fundamental fashion; the existence of their parents just wasn’t that important to either show. > > In many ways **Doctor Who** is as episodic as a sit-com but as we saw even those have a few essentials that must kept the same every week- in **DW** they are: there must be both time-travel and space-travel (police box optional); we must have companions; the Doctor must be the Doctor. If we think that we’re now up to our eleventh Doctor and that the character changed so much from incarnation to incarnation it’s remarkable how stable some of his traits are. The Doctor is brilliant and likes to talk; he abhors violence even though he’s willing to use it when he feels it’s necessary; he values strangeness and diversity in and of themselves and appreciates the same sensibility in others; he loves freedom and despises those who try to diminish it, he admires intelligence but esteems courage and resilience more and deems compassion even greater a quality; he participates and interferes, when in doubt he prefers action over inaction and finds omission morally reprehensible; he loves Earth above all planets and humans more than any species for some unknown reason of his own; he values life absolutely. To me the Doctor must present these characteristics. You can’t change them without changing the fundamental nature of the show and its spirit. To my way of seeing, this guy just wouldn’t even consider destroying the Earth no matter what, much less to stop a bunch of villains whom he already defeated countless times before. > > R.T.D. understood this, so in order to get that big confrontation near the first season’s finale and to have this same dilemma be both credible and suspenseful he first established that that (Ninth) version of the Doctor was deeply traumatized by the Time War and felt terrible guilt over his actions in it. Then he upped the stakes even more: this time Earth would be gone no matter what the Doctor did, it was just a question of who’d destroy it: himself or the Daleks. When the Doctor finally realizes he’ll never be able to do it, that the Earth will be destroyed, he will be killed and the Daleks will go on to try and conquer the universe, that is presented to us as a victory. That’s because that moment reassures the Doctor that no matter what had happened before it hadn’t turned him into a monster nor had it changed him so much he wasn’t the same person anymore and it’s supposed to be reassuring to the audience for the same reasons. Many people would disagree with this choice but it’s clearly the only of which the character is capable. > > My examples on the post you quoted were meant to illustrate just this point, not as evidence of “error” or “inconsistency” on the show’s continuity but a more fundamental misunderstanding in regards to its main character’s personality. > > **P.S.** My esteem for Russell T. Davies as a writer went up as I typed this post. It’s incredible how much _The Parting of The Ways_ is enriched by the revelations in _The End of Time_. For fucks sake dude, that’s nearly 800 words of rant! Joey from Friends!?! ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/269 "2010-04-23T02:59:32Z")
I liked the 800 words of rant a lot better than I liked 800 words of quote followed by one short sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/270 "2010-04-23T03:53:48Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I liked the 800 words of rant a lot better than I liked 800 words of quote followed by one short sentence. Gosh darn. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/271 "2010-04-23T08:35:48Z")
> [@vdgg81](#): > > And she’s sexier in this picture than she ever was on the show! Does anybody know when this was taken? I have to assume it’s a pretty old picture by now. Assuming the pictures were taken while Jon Pertwee was the Doctor, then it has to be 1973 or earlier as Tom Baker took over in 1974. Can’t google the images right now to find a proper date as I’m at work. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/272 "2010-04-23T09:27:47Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Gosh darn. …yeah dude, it was quite insightful and hardly a rant. Did you read it? ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/273 "2010-04-23T12:56:58Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Gosh darn. tl;dr ---
**Author:** ![yastobaal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/258eb7/32.png) [@yastobaal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yastobaal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/274 "2010-04-23T13:06:24Z")
BBC Blog post from Moffat [here](http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tv/2010/04/doctor-who-the-return-of-the-w.shtml). Gives away a few details that I personally wish I hadn’t read (but then I’m a guy who hates spoilers). For those that might be wondering: It details the idea behind this episode of the weeping angels and compares it to _Blink_, it also informs on one or two of the first scenes. Nothing important but I wanted to give a fair warning (unlike the BBC website). ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/275 "2010-04-24T18:09:22Z")
My heart’s pounding after that. Woah! ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/276 "2010-04-24T19:27:16Z")
Best episode so far this season. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/277 "2010-04-24T21:11:37Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > My heart’s pounding after that. Woah! I thought it might be such an episode, so I skipped watching it on BBC1 with my daughter. I’ll catch up on iPlayer later. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Best episode so far this season. I had hoped this might be the turning point for the quality of the season. So far its disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/278 "2010-04-24T22:19:36Z")
I’m enjoying the Angels so far. I’m looking forward to part 2. [spoiler]I’m glad they figured out a way to let the angels talk. They’re a cool monster, but without a voice they are a little limited. I’m not going to worry too much how they talk through the dead guy. We needed to hear from them somehow. Most of those statues were decaying. Maybe the Angels are sick?[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/279 "2010-04-24T22:57:03Z")
re spoiler ^^^^ They had been decaying for 400 years because of a lack of power or anything to feed off (presumably having disposed of the population of the city). The one fully-functioning Angel brought the ship and power is restored so the decayed Angels are waking up ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/280 "2010-04-24T23:10:47Z")
Not really a spoiler… I thought the scene where Amy is ignored was well thought out. She is very new and knows almost nothing about operating the Tardis or assisting the Doctor. It must of stung when the Doctor advised her to spend the day in the Tardis. Off hand, I don’t recall a scene like this with Rose or the other recent companions. But, it is logical that there are times when the Doctor needs to deal with serious problems alone. Speculating – Electricity, Power from the ship is feeding the Angels. Now I understand why the Doctor shot something. Whatever he shot will probably kill the power temporarily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851.md?page=15)