# Doctor Who Series Five: UK pace thread \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 3, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851 "2010-04-03T21:23:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Achren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@Achren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achren)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/361 "2010-05-02T07:08:04Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Nah, Russell wrote himself into various dead ends story wise “and now there’s a billion trillion Daleks and look, Rose! and here’s a thousand foot tall Cyber monster stomping on London. Rose!”. Steven is just unpicking it a bit, much needed too. “We’ve killed all the Daleks! Oops, they’re back. And we killed them all again! Except for these over here. No, we killed them too! Oh wait they survived.” So very aggravating. ---
**Author:** ![Galwegian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galwegian/32/3426_2.png) [@Galwegian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galwegian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/362 "2010-05-02T07:40:28Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > There’s a big Doctor wearing/not wearing his jacket theory going round. Heh, Who fandom never change. Okay, I’ll bite. What’s the jacket theory? My google-fu is poor. > [@Smapti](#): > > Did anyone else get the vibe that the man River killed was the Doctor? Absolutely, but after his final conversation with River, didn’t he imply that this could be undone? ---
**Author:** ![Achren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@Achren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achren)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/363 "2010-05-02T08:03:44Z")
> [@Galwegian](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite. What’s the jacket theory? My google-fu is poor. I came across the theory in [this Livejournal post](http://community.livejournal.com/doctorwho/5964332.html). It even has helpful screencaps. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/364 "2010-05-02T08:47:04Z")
I don’t really know what to think after that episode. RTD seemed to have a terrible lack of foresight and solved so many of the big problems via deus ex machina (Dalek vacuum, Jesus-Doctor, Rassilon-Glove, etc) that even hinting at it (“Time can be re-written…”) raises my blood pressure a bit. But, Moffat seems to have a steady enough narrative going here, and a solid enough plan for where the season is going, story-wise, that I can withhold judgment until we figure out just what’s going on. I do hope his writing becomes a bit more refined though in future seasons, because I’m finding myself a little lost in the obvious “hints” in each episode. [ul][li]Are we supposed to know what the Doctor was referring to when he told Amy to remember what he told her?[/li][li]Do we know why the Angels were snapping necks instead of throwing people back in time?[/li][li]Why didn’t the Angels go after the TARDIS, like they did in _Blink_?[/li][/ul] Also, it seems clear to me that the reason River was in jail was for killing the Doctor and it seems clear that the Doctor knows that as well. I’ve warmed up quite a bit on Matt Smith, and look forward to his episodes as much or more than I did with Tennant’s. Though I still wish we had another series of the dark-and-brooding ninth Doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/365 "2010-05-02T09:52:15Z")
The only thing that’s getting on my nerves a bit about this Doctor is his need to reason everything outloud by having a conversation with himself and asking other people questions. He does it constantly and IT’S FUCKING ANNOYING! ---
**Author:** ![ivan732](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aeb1de/32.png) [@ivan732](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan732)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/366 "2010-05-02T11:06:26Z")
> [@Achren](#): > > I came across the theory in [this Livejournal post](http://community.livejournal.com/doctorwho/5964332.html). It even has helpful screencaps. That is interesting. I’m normally pretty sceptical about wild fan theories that could just be explained be continuity errors… but there is something about how that scene plays out that makes this one seem more plausible (and it would be a pretty major costume error). ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/367 "2010-05-02T11:32:30Z")
> [@ivan732](#): > > That is interesting. I’m normally pretty sceptical about wild fan theories that could just be explained be continuity errors… but there is something about how that scene plays out that makes this one seem more plausible (and it would be a pretty major costume error). Holy crap! I agree, I was ready to dismiss it as a continuity error as well, but that whole scene plays out completely differently. When he returned I remember thinking “that’s odd for him to come back after saying he was leaving.” And then he says something mysteriously esoteric that has no follow-up within the story, and just leaves again, as quickly and quietly as he came. Damn! Well spotted! ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/368 "2010-05-02T11:42:56Z")
> [@ivan732](#): > > That is interesting. I’m normally pretty sceptical about wild fan theories that could just be explained be continuity errors… but there is something about how that scene plays out that makes this one seem more plausible (and it would be a pretty major costume error). Pretty plausible in fact. I’ve just watched that scene again and I don’t think it’s a continuity error. He comes back in a total different mood and in different clothes, he also refers to what he said to her when she was 7 and she should try to remember. I really do think that there is a 2nd story winding around the main arc. It involves the Doctor going back after some future(in the main arc timeline) event and trying to change things. I think this 2ndary arc starts with the Doctor going back to Amy when she was 7. We see in the first episode a 7 year old Amy sitting on her suitcase and looking up to the sound of the TARDIS arriving. The TARDIS never arrived back for the 7 year old Amy in the main timeline but we hear it coming back and see Amy react to it. It was even mentioned in this thread. [Post 52](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12305418&postcount=52) > [@Merijeek](#): > > At the end, after pretty much everything else is resolved, we see young Amelia sitting on her suitcase waiting for the TARDIS. Didn’t it go all happy with the TARDIS sound starting up? > > Or did I imagine that? [Post 53](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12305476&postcount=53) > [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I noticed that too, Merijeek. I guess that was supposed to be some kind of dream sequence? and then **Merijeek** nails it IMO in [Post 54](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12305511&postcount=54) > [@](#): > > It’s the TARDIS looping back on Amelia’s timeline for some reason. All specualtion but I think it’s pretty strong. I’m now convinced that there is another story happeing in front of our eyes and we’ll see it all happen in context in a future episode. Cool! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/369 "2010-05-02T12:03:53Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Yeah, but the problem is a lot of what RTD did was crap. It made for a very difficult stage to set the kind of Doctor Who that Moffatt loves (the original series) when everyone on earth is now intimately familiar with all the monsters. And stupid things like chanting the Doctor’s name worldwide brings him back from a weird tiny super-old creature to his former self is so dumb it needs a retroactive kick in the nuts. > [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Nah, Russell wrote himself into various dead ends story wise “and now there’s a billion trillion Daleks and look, Rose! and here’s a thousand foot tall Cyber monster stomping on London. Rose!”. Steven is just unpicking it a bit, much needed too. I know he has some crap, and I’m okay with fixing some of it. And despite the post that said everything from RTD was being removed, it seems the only stuff being removed is the stuff where other people found out about the existence of aliens. I can stand that, as long as that little bit about “time travelers still remembering” counts with the companions. One companion that doesn’t remember meeting the Doctor is enough. Oh, and Jack should be fine, too, but I don’t know about the rest of Torchwood. Maybe it’ll just have its origins altered a bit. I haven’t watched it in a while, but isn’t it supposed to be a secretive organization, anyways? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/370 "2010-05-02T12:12:54Z")
And River Song kills the Doctor in one Timeline to save the other one? Or both timelines?? Both put at risk by the Doctor trying to rewrite history? I get very confused. But in a good way. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/371 "2010-05-02T12:21:17Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > All specualtion but I think it’s pretty strong. I’m now convinced that there is another story happeing in front of our eyes and we’ll see it all happen in context in a future episode. Cool! There are two things that happen in previous stories that may factor in, too. In _Victory of the Daleks_, there’s a strange sidestory about one of the Operator’s boyfriend being killed in a battle. It really feels out of place, yet is played like it ought to have some importance. And in _The Beast Below_, somehow Amy had time to send herself a message to stop the Doctor from doing something, but that is never explained or followed up on. I think in light of this revelation, they have a wider significance. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/372 "2010-05-02T13:10:57Z")
As for continuity errors: I wonder about the clock that goes from [11:59 AM 6/25](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/File:Clockgoofa.jpg) to [12:00 PM 6/26](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/File:Clockgoofb.jpg). I figure it’s the same type of thing as the ID card that has a date of 1990 from the first episode. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/373 "2010-05-02T13:41:10Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > There are two things that happen in previous stories that may factor in, too. > > In _Victory of the Daleks_, there’s a strange sidestory about one of the Operator’s boyfriend being killed in a battle. It really feels out of place, yet is played like it ought to have some importance. No, I think this is just to add a bit of Human drama. It’s a reminder that there is a war going on, and people are dying all the time. But it was badly done, and in a generally poor episode. > [@](#): > > And in _The Beast Below_, somehow Amy had time to send herself a message to stop the Doctor from doing something, but that is never explained or followed up on. > > I think in light of this revelation, they have a wider significance. That was explained. People in the voting booth have a chance to record a message for themself before their memory is erased. From their own point of view, their experience jumps from entering the booth straight to hearing their own message. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/374 "2010-05-02T13:57:56Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > That was explained. People in the voting booth have a chance to record a message for themself before their memory is erased. From their own point of view, their experience jumps from entering the booth straight to hearing their own message. But at that point she doesn’t know what the Doctor’s going to do. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/375 "2010-05-02T14:31:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Did anyone else get the vibe that the man River killed was the Doctor? Yeah, but the fact that I had thought of it instantly discredited the idea in my head. I’m no good at twists and hidden story lines etc. I put it down at best to a foreshadowing of how the current Doctor might pop his clogs in a future finale. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/376 "2010-05-02T14:48:36Z")
So going with the jacket hypothesis :), why was so important to near future Doctor that Amy remember what he told her when she was seven? Not so much _what_ he said but _that she remember_ it? Methinks Amy is there when the Pandoric opens (or actually opens Pandoric’s box, despite the Doctor telling her not to, her curiosity being too much for her) and whatever comes out of that box splits her across the time streams … and that the process of her remembering things from both streams is how the whatever-it-is gets put back in the box and closed back up … or even Amy _is_ the physical manifestation of that which was in the box spreading out through time and space and unknowingly bringing about the nonexistence of all universes unless she is eventually convinced to trust the Doctor and to do that which is necessary to go back inside… But River Song seems not to have already known who Amy is when they apparently first meet and is just impressed with her quickness, and River Song is there when the Pandoric opens … So ruled out: River Song cannot be a future Doctor or something like a new Master form because she’d then have recognized the Doctor’s form in the Library. (Although a reformed Master who had killed _himself_ somehow, in an act of self-sacrifice, and been reborn as Dr. Song would be a very fun twist to play! Of course the Master reformed and reborn would say that he was the best man he had ever known.) But she _is_ (per the Father, and “is” is mentioned differently than “what she’s done”) something that Father Copernicus thinks the Doctor would be very upset to learn. What could that be? She aint a Dalek. She’s not a Timelord. No reason to be upset over her being a Time Agent _unless_, like Jack she somehow became a fixed point … and it seems unlikely that Father C. was referring to her being the murderer of the Doctor as what she “is” as he is not so aware of him ahead of time ad is asking Dr. Song if he can be trusted and is as good as she says he is … And will the Doctor be tempted to try to rewrite time to before the war with the Daleks or even to again go back to their genesis and have it end very badly? I don’t think he does but I cannot imagine that he doesn’t think about it. This has potential. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/377 "2010-05-02T14:48:54Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > and then **Merijeek** nails it IMO in [Post 54](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12305511&postcount=54) > > All specualtion but I think it’s pretty strong. I’m now convinced that there is another story happeing in front of our eyes and we’ll see it all happen in context in a future episode. Cool! Wow, it’s always weird when I see evidence that people are actually reading my posts. Anyway, I don’t think people need to go assuming that Moffat is giving RTD the finger quite yet. He’s obviously trying something ambitious with this season. It’s either going to be one long brilliant arc, or it’s going to be a big flop. From what I’ve seen of Moffat’s stuff in the past, and not just Doctor Who, I think we’re in good hands. > [@](#): > > As for continuity errors: I wonder about the clock that goes from 11:59 AM 6/25 to 12:00 PM 6/26. I figure it’s the same type of thing as the ID card that has a date of 1990 from the first episode. Is that maybe a European thing? I know here in the USA it’s 12PM for noon and 12AM for midnight. Which is something that’s always seemed arbitrary to me. I don’t think I’m the only one - FWIR flights, for example, are always scheduled for 11:59AM or 11:59PM, rather than 12:00. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![ivan732](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aeb1de/32.png) [@ivan732](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan732)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/378 "2010-05-02T15:18:39Z")
The clock thing I am inclined to think was just a mistake. Some staffer got a bit muddled about the AM/PM clock, perhaps because the 24-hour clock is commonly used in Britain, certainly on digital clocks. Although, it did start on 11:59am, which is pretty unambigously just before midday. But it was just a fleeting shot, so I think they mocked up a digital clock (because they needed one with a large date display) and didn’t get it quite right. The main point of it was to tie the date on the clock to the date on the Doctor’s universal time readout thingy. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/379 "2010-05-02T15:19:46Z")
This is veeeeeeeeeeery interesting - I’ve just rewatched that scene and you’re all right, the Doctor’s words and actions seem to be completely outside of the context of the main story of the episode. Moffat has demonstrated that he can do meta and non-linear narrative before so like the rest of you I’m hoping that this is a sign of something very interesting. Oh, and 26/06/2010 is my birthday - nice to know it’ll be competing with some major catastrophic event. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/380 "2010-05-02T15:21:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Oh, and Jack should be fine, too, but I don’t know about the rest of Torchwood. Maybe it’ll just have its origins altered a bit. I haven’t watched it in a while, but isn’t it supposed to be a secretive organization, anyways? Supposed to be secretive, but the people of Cardiff got used to seeing aliens fairly regularly, and of course the events of Children of Earth were a pretty big deal, and it’d be really shitty if the whole thing were unwritten. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851.md?page=20)