# Doctor Who Series Five: UK pace thread \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 3, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851 "2010-04-03T21:23:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/761 "2010-06-21T07:54:20Z")
Well, I’ve just got to say: Best penultimate episode ever! **duality/72** IIRC at the end of series 4 the Doctor said that the Daleks were quite proficient at destroying TARDISs (what is the plural of TARDIS anyway?). Plus in the classic series at least one of the Master’s TARDISs was destroyed without universe threatening consequences. I suspect that this is a specific set of circumstances that can only happen once. This is my idle speculation on the true villain of the piece. [spoiler]As the TARDIS was under the control of a third party, not River, then that doesn’t leave many suspects. It has to be a Time Lord of some kind, so I suspect it is either Omega or more likely an alternate version of the Doctor such as the Dream King or the Valyard. Hence the fact that all of the Doctor’s enemies want him imprisoned, ironically this probably allows the villain the freedom to destroy the universe. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/762 "2010-06-21T07:59:06Z")
[QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus;12596199 [ul] [li]As someone else said - how did all those races across time and space collaborate to imprison the Doctor?[/li] [/ul] I [/QUOTE] Well the Daleks have time travel, the Sontarans have a limited type of time travel, the Silurians would have already been in that era, so just needed to be woken up. Cybermen have not time travel. But given the circumstances I’m sure that the Daleks would have loaned the technology to anyone who needed it, if only to show how superior they are. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/763 "2010-06-21T08:04:14Z")
The first appearance of Captain Jack Harkness, and Time Agents as an entity, was in a Steven Moffatt story, so he may have invented the concept himself. He has nothing to do with _Torchwood_ especially now it’s not a BBC Production anymore, so I would guess that the Vortex Manipulator and its accompanying wrist do not belong to Captain Jack Harkness. Or Captain John Hart. Though now it belongs to River Song, who I suspect is (or was) also a Time Agent. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/764 "2010-06-21T08:43:35Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > The first appearance of Captain Jack Harkness, and Time Agents as an entity, was in a Steven Moffatt story, so he may have invented the concept himself. He has nothing to do with _Torchwood_ especially now it’s not a BBC Production anymore, so I would guess that the Vortex Manipulator and its accompanying wrist do not belong to Captain Jack Harkness. Or Captain John Hart. Though now it belongs to River Song, who I suspect is (or was) also a Time Agent. It’s still a BBC production; it simply has a bit of extra funding from Starz. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/765 "2010-06-21T08:55:09Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > It’s still a BBC production; Ah. I see you’re right. When it first was announced I saw no mention of it, but that’s since been clarified. Still don’t think it was meant to imply it was Jack Harkness. Though he may be able to regrow limbs, considering he rebuilt himself from a charred dismembered corpse, so perhaps it wouldn’t matter if it was or not. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/766 "2010-06-21T10:28:41Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > Cybermen have not time travel. But given the circumstances I’m sure that the Daleks would have loaned the technology to anyone who needed it, if only to show how superior they are. The Daleks - the same Daleks who despise all other races and are fuelled by an uncontrollable need to wipe them all out? Those Daleks? ---
**Author:** ![jacquilynne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jacquilynne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacquilynne)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/767 "2010-06-21T13:38:16Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > The Daleks - the same Daleks who despise all other races and are fuelled by an uncontrollable need to wipe them all out? Those Daleks? If you believe that the Daleks were willing to cooperate with all of these enemies of their enemy in the first place, it’s no additional stretch to believe they were actually willing to, you know, do something cooperative-like, and boost someone through time. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/768 "2010-06-21T14:06:57Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > [spoiler]As the TARDIS was under the control of a third party, not River, then that doesn’t leave many suspects. > > It has to be a Time Lord of some kind, so I suspect it is either Omega or more likely an alternate version of the Doctor such as the Dream King or the Valyard. Hence the fact that all of the Doctor’s enemies want him imprisoned, ironically this probably allows the villain the freedom to destroy the universe. [/spoiler] Hmmm… does the voice match any of the voices from the end of the last series? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/769 "2010-06-21T14:44:21Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Hmmm… does the voice match any of the voices from the end of the last series? Whacked-out theory that’s so screwy that it doesn’t need to be spoilered… What about the Galifreyans? They’ll be safe inside the time lock. Everything gets erased, and they come out of the time lock as all that’s left. In a way, they’ll have swapped essential characteristics with the Daleks. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/770 "2010-06-21T14:49:18Z")
[spoiler]I really hope that this entire season isn’t a closed time loop centered on Amelia. That would mean every story was only real within Amelia’s world. I guess that would explain some of the weirder stories. A flying whale with a space ship on it’s back? Even for sci-fi that’s a fantasy story. Something from a childs mind. A 2 part episode centered around a childs reality is fine. Silence in the Library / Forrest of the Dead was very good. But, an entire season plot arc based on a 7 year old girls perceptions? I’d find it disappointing. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/771 "2010-06-21T15:09:21Z")
> [@jacquilynne](#): > > If you believe that the Daleks were willing to cooperate with all of these enemies of their enemy in the first place, it’s no additional stretch to believe they were actually willing to, you know, do something cooperative-like, and boost someone through time. Yes, maybe this “new paradigm” of Daleks e.g. brightly coloured childrens toy Daleks with extra flashing lights, are not the rampant xenophobes they used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/772 "2010-06-21T15:48:57Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > Yes, maybe this “new paradigm” of Daleks e.g. brightly coloured childrens toy Daleks with extra flashing lights, are not the rampant xenophobes they used to be. Or maybe, after losing to the same guy over and over again they are just going to try a new strategy? Naaaaah. Much easier to complain about the colors. Still, I’m no clear why nobody complains about the brightly colored Daleks on the poster from the movie 45 years ago… Damn that Peter Cushing! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/773 "2010-06-21T15:55:18Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I really hope that this entire season isn’t a closed time loop centered on Amelia. That would mean every story was only real within Amelia’s world. I guess that would explain some of the weirder stories. A flying whale with a space ship on it’s back? Even for sci-fi that’s a fantasy story. Something from a childs mind It’s an excellent theory; unfortunately it doesn’t explain River Song. Also, if the Crack destroyed Rory such that he had never been, how did the Nestene Consciousness get knowledge of him? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/774 "2010-06-21T16:13:26Z")
Okay, so River is clever enough to leave messages only the Doctor will get, but she never knows which Doctor will show up. How did she know leaving a message on a diamond cliff on the oldest planet in the universe would get translated by _this_ Doctor? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/775 "2010-06-21T16:18:24Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Okay, so River is clever enough to leave messages only the Doctor will get, but she never knows which Doctor will show up. How did she know leaving a message on a diamond cliff on the oldest planet in the universe would get translated by _this_ Doctor? She didn’t; why would it matter? As long as the Doctor shows up, it doesn’t matter which regeneration. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/776 "2010-06-21T16:21:46Z")
From River’s point of view, does it have to be this Doctor? ETA: What he said. The whole “never existed” thing isn’t anything like as absolute as it sounds. It could never be, or the events of The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone wouldn’t have happened, or would have completely unhappened. In this last episode, the Doctor explicitly stated that people always leave traces; not just memories, but actual physical evidence. Daleks have certainly been shown to cooperate with others for strategic purposes (“Would - you - care - for - some - TEA?”), but they always show their true colors in the end. I’d kind of like the next episode to start with the Daleks saying “The - al-LI-ance - is - dis-SOLVED!” and exterminating everyone else in the chamber. More speculation follows.[spoiler]I don’t think the voice in the Tardis will turn out to be another Time Lord. Moffat won’t want to be seen to be redoing an RTD finale. I also don’t think it will turn out to be a “classic” villain that hasn’t appeared in the new series. You don’t want your audience running to Wikipedia for back story during the finale. Bringing back the Dream Lord would mean that the last episode was all a dream, which would be a huge disappointment, or that DL’s powers extend into the real world, which invalidates the ending of Amy’s Choice. But what about Prisoner Zero? He knew what caused the cracks and had traveled through one. And we never really saw what justified the Atraxi’s extraordinary efforts to capture or destroy him, or why he was called “Prisoner Zero” for that matter – perhaps because they knew he would (had?) reduced the universe to nothingness.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/777 "2010-06-21T16:27:19Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > She didn’t; why would it matter? As long as the Doctor shows up, it doesn’t matter which regeneration. Didn’t it have to be this Doctor, since this Doctor gets his Tardis blown up? In the other instances, it really didn’t matter which Doctor showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/778 "2010-06-21T18:33:42Z")
> [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > River has Jack’s time vortex manipulator, so she can do a time jump and get out of the exploding TARDIS. I hope not, if for no reason than that the TARDIS should be pretty much impenetrable. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/779 "2010-06-21T20:47:52Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I hope not, if for no reason than that the TARDIS should be pretty much impenetrable. > > -Joe Is the Tardis a prison? I know it’s a fortress (usually, unless the Doctor does something stupid) but would it be impossible for River to get out? She opened the doors in the episode after all. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851/780 "2010-06-21T21:07:41Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Is the Tardis a prison? I know it’s a fortress (usually, unless the Doctor does something stupid) but would it be impossible for River to get out? She opened the doors in the episode after all. Yeah, and there was a sheer rockface in front of her. If the TARDIS wanted to let her out it could have materialized 90 degrees to the right. Anyway, my point wasn’t that the TARDIS is a prison or anything like that. More that I really, really don’t like the idea that human technology from circa the year 5000 can penetrate one of the most powerful devices in the universe. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-five-uk-pace-thread-edited-title/534851.md?page=40)