# Doctor Who - Series Six - Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 24, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860 "2011-08-24T03:38:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/281 "2011-09-13T12:59:50Z")
I’m sorry, but if the above 5-odd posts are correct, than Amy Pond is among the most negligent and horrible mothers ever. “Oh, my daughter’s going to be kidnapped and forced, somehow, to become a murderous psychopath - nothing to do here!” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/282 "2011-09-13T13:09:20Z")
> [@drillrod](#): > > In fact, except in two-part episodes or spots where it made explicit that the action picks up immediately following that last fade out, I assume that there’s stuff going on that we’re not privy to. There’s always been stuff going on that we’re not privy to. [The classic Who plot summaries](http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/) have an “Untelevised” category. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/283 "2011-09-13T13:31:30Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m sorry, but if the above 5-odd posts are correct, than Amy Pond is among the most negligent and horrible mothers ever. “Oh, my daughter’s going to be kidnapped and forced, somehow, to become a murderous psychopath - nothing to do here!” Going by the five posts above it’s because she can’t. Not because she won’t. Big difference. > [@](#): > > Rimmer: You were wearing a hat, but it was definitely you. (Lister removes the hat on his head, quickly) > Lister: Well there you go, I won’t wear the hat. Then it can’t happen, can it? I can live without a hat. > Rimmer: Lister, it _has_ happened. You can’t change it, any more than you can change what you had for breakfast yesterday. > Lister: Hey, it hasn’t happened, has it? It has ‘will have going to have happened’ happened, but it hasn’t actually ‘happened’ happened yet, actually. > Rimmer: Poppycock! It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that. Your bucket’s been kicked, baby. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/284 "2011-09-13T23:50:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. Nor is it the Doctor’s fault that he couldn’t lock on to her timestream specifically, or that they landed on Appalappachea in a quarantine clinic in the middle of a plague - the TARDIS is an old machine with imprecise controls that the Doctor doesn’t fully understand. Hell, the TARDIS herself has admitted that she doesn’t take him where he wants to go. Even if he had picked a “time” that wasn’t during the quarantine that doesn’t mean he would have got then. > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > But then he said one thing. When he was trying to convince Rory to choose young Amy, when old Amy was banging on the Tardis door, trying to get in, he said “She’ll never have existed. She’s not real.” Yeah, that bugged me a bit. What defines “real”, especially for the Doctor, and time being able to be rewritten, etc? It gets all timey-wimey with the “she exists but won’t because Amy has now been rescued before it happened” thingy. > [@ecseas](#): > > The little dying girl who regenerates isn’t shown regenerating into Melody. Largely not to spoil her identity before they meet her, to have the surprise possible. > [@](#): > > Who is to say that’s really her? Melody stated in that episode that she last regenerated in New York, and then went to find her parents. I think they have strongly implied it was her. Perhaps not 100% filled the gaps by not showing it happen, but pretty reasonably. Plus, how many other regenerating folk are there right now? > [@](#): > > If it was Melody, what was she doing in between then and meeting up with Rory and Amy? Getting brainwashed by Madame whatshername? > [@](#): > > Did Melody get adopted by a family? Did Rory and Amy ever see a family? Yeah, we actually didn’t see any parents for Mels. It is left for us to assume that she has them while going to school with Rory and Amy, but for all we know she was in foster care or whatever. > [@](#): > > The photo of amy holding the baby. (I can’t remember which episode) I don’t think Madame Kovarian doesn’t seem the type to take happy snaps. The photo was in the orphanage in Florida where the little girl was and the suit was found. It was strongly implied a connection between that girl and Amy. Though how that picture got taken when baby Melody was taken before Amy even held her (likely) and even flesh baby Mels was gone within a few hours/days of birth. > [@](#): > > Some one said we’ll be surprised about the doctor’s and Amy’s relationship. (Moffat maybe?) Amy being the mother of his girlfriend isn’t a surprising relationship? Amy being his mother-in-law? > [@](#): > > What’s important about Amy’s wedding day? It’s the day the Doctor was remembered back into being after the TARDIS exploded and deleted history and the Doctor got erased in the Pandorica resetting the universe. That’s not special enough? > [@](#): > > The nursery rhyme seems important to me. > > Tick tock goes the clock > And what then shall we see? > Tick tock until the day > That thou shalt marry me (River song and the doctor getting married? The day Amy and Rory get married?) > > Tick tock goes the clock > And all the years they fly (Time travel… or being stuck in time. Kind of like what happened to amy? ) > Tick tock and all too soon > You and I must die ( This song is about the doctor’s death. Obviously, he’s the you. Who is the I?) > > Tick tock goes the clock > He cradled her and he rocked her > Tick tock goes the clock > Even for the Doctor. You may be projecting too much. “All the years they fly” is a pretty common sentiment of how life goes by too quickly upon reflection. “You and I must die” is supposed to be about how us humans are doomed to death, not specifically the Doctor’s death. The line at the end is bringing the Doctor into it. The “you and I” is the singers and the singers’ audience. > [@](#): > > Madame Kovarian seems important too me. Somewhere in the previews, I thought I saw an image of River dressed as Kovarian, with the eyepatch and all. > [@JohnT](#): > > And you’re exactly right: 50yo Amy didn’t once ask about her daughter, not even a “Tell me that you spent that time not rescuing me, rescuing _her_?” Already explained: first, all that time they were rescuing Amy. Her timestream was at a different rate. It’s all timey-wimey, but there wasn’t a gap where the Doctor and Rory weren’t actively working on the Amy rescue, there was just Amy’s path going by much faster. Second, they already found Melody as a girl and lived through that. Trying to rescue her now doesn’t seem possible. Or at least, is extra timey-wimey. It affects there already extant lives. It gets into that zone of the Doctor’s about interacting in his own past. Apply that to Amy and Rory as well. ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/285 "2011-09-14T07:06:48Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Melody stated in that episode that she last regenerated in New York, and then went to find her parents. I think they have strongly implied it was her. Perhaps not 100% filled the gaps by not showing it happen, but pretty reasonably. Plus, how many other regenerating folk are there right now? There had to be a few other regenerations in there somewhere. The one we saw in New York happened in 1969. Amy and Rory weren’t born until 1988 or thereabouts. Either the people in custody of Melody have time-travel capabilities of their own and whisked her away to Leadworth to grow up with Amy right after that regeneration (doubtful, since it seemed like she’d been living on the streets with no one to care for her for a while), or she kept dying and regenerating as a small child until Amy and Rory were her (apparent) age, at which point she just grew up with them. Which doesn’t really explain how she got from alone on the streets of New York in 1969 to England in the 90s, but I’m hoping they’ll cover all that at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/286 "2011-09-14T07:13:11Z")
Don’t forget that Melody/River can apparently control her aging. After she became Alex Kingston-shaped she said she would run her aging backwards for a while just to confuse people (explaining why she looked younger every time she met the Doctor–and older every time the Doctor met her!) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/287 "2011-09-14T08:57:18Z")
If I may quote my own post; > [@Smapti](#): > > Finding her as an infant and raising her themselves would distort theirs and the Doctor’s timeline in ways that would probably break the Laws of Time in a way that makes “two Amys in the same place at the same time” look like a routine traffic infraction. It occured to me at work tonight that this might be exactly what the writers are aiming for. It’s been established in the series that interfering with your own timeline can have catastrophic consequences (like, say, flying monkeys showing up to eat the universe.) The Silence believe that the universe will end if a certain question is asked. Suppose there comes a point where the Silence give Amy an opportunity to rescue her baby daughter, knowing that if she goes for it, River Song will cease to have ever existed, thus creating a paradox, and the universe will collapse upon itself? ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/288 "2011-09-14T16:02:23Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Hell, the TARDIS herself has admitted that she doesn’t take him where he wants to go. Even if he had picked a “time” that wasn’t during the quarantine that doesn’t mean he would have got then. If I recall correctly, the Doctor complained that the TARDIS didn’t always taken him where he wanted to go, and her response was that she always took him where he \*needed \*to go. I don’t see this helping much with Appalappachea, though, because why would the Doctor have been needed there and then? The Appalappacheans didn’t seem to have a problem he’d be needed for in order for it to have been resolved. Neither he, Amy, nor Rory interacted with anything but the automation there. > [@Irishman](#): > > The photo was in the orphanage in Florida where the little girl was and the suit was found. It was strongly implied a connection between that girl and Amy. Though how that picture got taken when baby Melody was taken before Amy even held her (likely) and even flesh baby Mels was gone within a few hours/days of birth. Were those images of Amy with baby taken inside or outside? I got the impression that she had at least a little time with the baby before the Doctor and Rory assaulted Demon’s Run. And we did see Amy holding the baby in Demon’s Run. > [@Marlitharn](#): > > Which doesn’t really explain how she got from alone on the streets of New York in 1969 to England in the 90s, but I’m hoping they’ll cover all that at some point. And we also don’t know how she got from the orphanage to Cape Canaveral in the space suit (in the warehouse where Amy shot at the space suited figure that we’re assuming was her) that she then got herself out of (still in the warehouse, space suit found ripped open from the inside), back to the orphanage, still sans space suit (seen around the corner from where Amy disappeared at the orphanage), and then from there to NYC (seen regenerating in the alley). Wait, do I have that sequence right? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/289 "2011-09-14T17:25:05Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > If I recall correctly, the Doctor complained that the TARDIS didn’t always taken him where he wanted to go, and her response was that she always took him where he \*needed \*to go. I don’t see this helping much with Appalappachea, though, because why would the Doctor have been needed there and then? ‘Where you need to be’ and ‘where you are needed’ are not the same thing, though. ‘Where you are needed’ is a specific subset of ‘where you need to be’ - you need to be there, because someone who is there needs you. However, ‘where you need to be’ also includes ‘where you need to be, because it’ll help _you or your Companions_ in some fashion’\* and ‘you look bored, so you need to go here for an adventure’. (And, also, for those times she actually listens to him, ‘where you need to be, because it’s where what you want to do is’.) - How does putting Amy through hell and forcing Rory to make an impossibly hard choice help them? Well, for one thing, they’re most likely going to be in that situation again, and not necessarily in a way that their time in hell can be erased, and consequences of the hard choice controlled if they go the wrong way. So it’s a safe-ish situation to use for a necessary lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/290 "2011-09-14T17:27:19Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > If I recall correctly, the Doctor complained that the TARDIS didn’t always taken him where he wanted to go, and her response was that she always took him where he \*needed \*to go. I don’t see this helping much with Appalappachea, though, because why would the Doctor have been needed there and then? Yes, but still establishes that the TARDIS isn’t reliable to the Doctor’s desires. That’s the salient point. > [@](#): > > Were those images of Amy with baby taken inside or outside? I got the impression that she had at least a little time with the baby before the Doctor and Rory assaulted Demon’s Run. And we did see Amy holding the baby in Demon’s Run. Hard to tell from the pics - just a white background. And yes, Amy was holding a baby at Demon’s Run, but at what point was ganger Melody introduced? Was that real Melody or Ganger Melody that Amy was holding when we first see them? Could have been real Melody up until the point the Doctor showed up, then the swap occurred with some form of misdirection, using Madame Kovarian as the “watch this” misdirect to get them to take the wrong one. Or the swap could have occurred at birth, and Amy only ever had ganger Melody so that _whenever_ the Doctor showed up, whatever his plan, the swap was already done. Yes, there are certainly unfilled gaps in young Melody’s life story. But consider that The Silence somehow transported Melody from the far future at Demon’s Run to the past at 1960s Earth in order for the moon shot, so we know they have some form of time travel ability. So it’s not remarkable that she was moved around and placed as a child to grow up _with_ her parents. Which is an interesting point, from the perspective of Madame Kovarian and company as the _good_ guys. Yes, they want to control Melody’s upbringing to make her the Doctor’s enemy, but they also want her to grow up with her parents, because separating a child from its parents is not exactly “good”\*. So having her grow up _with_ them rather than raised by them is an interesting compromise. * * * \*At least, not unless the parents are dangerous to the child. Which in the case of Amy and Rory hanging with the Doctor, might be arguable. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/291 "2011-09-14T18:40:55Z")
Well, for time travel there’s that ship that was also in “The Lodger”. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/292 "2011-09-14T21:23:55Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Well, for time travel there’s that ship that was also in “The Lodger”. And Jack’s wristband when it works. When it comes down to it, there’s a LOT of time travelers running around in the Whoniverse. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/293 "2011-09-14T21:46:15Z")
Sorry, I was just talking about how the Silence might have been able to transport River around. In either “Impossible Astronaut” or “Day of the Moon” when the doctor and his companions are exploring Rory and River come across the time machine. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/294 "2011-09-14T22:04:38Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Sorry, I was just talking about how the Silence might have been able to transport River around. In either “Impossible Astronaut” or “Day of the Moon” when the doctor and his companions are exploring Rory and River come across the time machine. Ah, got it. Well, it seems very likely that the Catholics In Spaaaaaaaaace don’t have time travel. However, the similarity between the Silents and the one lifeboat (or whatever) was definitely too much to be a production accident. Pretty sure you’ve got your answer there. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/295 "2011-09-14T22:34:06Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Don’t forget that Melody/River can apparently control her aging. After she became Alex Kingston-shaped she said she would run her aging backwards for a while just to confuse people (explaining why she looked younger every time she met the Doctor–and older every time the Doctor met her!) Which, while cute, really wasn’t needed. I don’t think Alex Kingston looks older now than she did when she first showed up on Doctor Who. Hell, she doesn’t really look much older to me than she did on ER 10 years or so ago. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/296 "2011-09-15T00:08:06Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Which, while cute, really wasn’t needed. I don’t think Alex Kingston looks older now than she did when she first showed up on Doctor Who. That’s what I was thinking too. > [@](#): > > Hell, she doesn’t really look much older to me than she did on ER 10 years or so ago. I never watched ER, but sometimes I would see a few seconds of it while flipping through channels. I saw her but didn’t think anything of it. Then when she appeared on Doctor Who I thought she looked familiar and just had to Google her. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/297 "2011-09-15T00:12:12Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Well, for time travel there’s that ship that was also in “The Lodger”. Which looked a lot like the Silent base under ground in Florida… ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/298 "2011-09-15T00:56:20Z")
Right, that’s what I was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/299 "2011-09-15T14:44:34Z")
I just got around to watching _The Girl Who Waited_, and I hated it. Even for Doctor Who, the premise was too ridiculous and inconsistent. For example: - It was implied that Apalapuchia is a planet, and a popular tourist destination. That would mean they get alien visitors all the time. How could their medical system be incapable of treating aliens, or at least know enough not to kill them through “kindness”? - Two Streams (?) is a quarantine facility. How could it have one entrance for both visitors and patients? And a button that lets you choose which one you are? - Are we supposed to understand that Chen7 kills infected people in 24 hours, but if you’re in an accelerated time stream, it won’t kill you until 24 hours have elapsed in the outside world? So your body gets older, but the pathogen’s advances are stopped? That doesn’t make any sense. - There was nothing in the series to indicate Amy knew how the sonic screwdriver worked, let alone know how to build one. Of course 37 years is a long time, but with no books, schematics, parts, etc., this seemed highly improbable. - Why aren’t the hand-bots tipped off by the Interface on where Amy is hiding? For that matter, why are they two different systems, and why couldn’t Amy hack the handbot control system? - How did Amy find out that the hand-bot’s hand contained an anesthetic? There are no other people there (in her time-stream), and the first time it happened to her, she would have been injected and killed. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/300 "2011-09-15T14:50:45Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I just got around to watching _The Girl Who Waited_, and I hated it. Even for Doctor Who, the premise was too ridiculous and inconsistent. For example: > > - It was implied that Apalapuchia is a planet, and a popular tourist destination. That would mean they get alien visitors all the time. How could their medical system be incapable of treating aliens, or at least know enough not to kill them through “kindness”? I agree with most of your criticisms of the episode; this one, though, I think is explained adequately - at the time they arrived the planet’s under quarantine. Nobody allowed in or out (unless you happen to have a TARDIS…) So no aliens should be present. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860.md?page=16)