# Doctor Who - Series Six - Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 24, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860 "2011-08-24T03:38:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/541 "2011-10-02T07:32:31Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > (\*) Pending questions: (pulled from another message board) > > 1. What is the question that the Silence refer to? > 2. What was the Doctor’s faith? > 3. What was his fear? > 4. What made the Tardis explode in the finale of series 5? > 5. What did the Doctor whisper in River’s ear in Let’s Kill Hitler? > 6. What exactly is River in prison for? Murdering the Doctor the first time in LKH or this second, coming time? Or something else completely unrelated? > 7. Who the heck is Jim the Fish? > 8. Why did the Silence put little kid River into the space suit in the second episode? > 9. When were those pictures of Amy and baby River taken, since melody was taken from her immediately after birth? > 10. What is the Doctor’s name? > 11. What’s wrong with Fez’s? > 12. Is the Sonic screwdriver Amy made, the same one the Doctor gives to River in the future? > 13. What is the only reason the Doctor would ever tell someone his name? > 14. Why did Rory speak in past tense at that prison/hotel when he said, “After having traveled with you, there wasn’t anything left to be afraid of.” or something to that effect? > 15. Why would the Doctor invite a previous version of himself to watch him die? I can answer some of those.1. Answered in “The Wedding of River Song,” final line. 2. He has none? 3. Answered in “The God Complex,” I think. Amelia Pond waiting for him. .. 6. Lake Silencio, apparently, as of “The Wedding of River Song.” … 10. Something with an S, probably, according to my memories of old Who. 11. What? Fezzes are cool! … 15. Answered in “The Wedding of River Song.” The Silence need to believe he is dead. He TARDISed out of the fake body they burned. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/542 "2011-10-02T08:49:17Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > But, I don’t see how much has changed. The Silence are still out there. They think he’s dead for the moment. But how long before they hear he’s alive? The Doctor can’t resist helping when people are in trouble. The Silence will try again. Yes, because they are the new archenemy, instead of the Daleks, Cybermen, or some variation on Time Lords. Finally. And he’s a time traveler who ages particularly slowly, so in his subjective near term, they’ll just think it’s him from before they killed him. He pretended that he had aged 200 years between “The God Complex” and “The Wedding of River Song.” He could be having adventures in that 200 years as far as they know. Now, they time travel too, and they may find that he’s still a risk, but they may not be so quick to mess with the young guy they think they have already killed, so it buys him some subjective time. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/543 "2011-10-02T10:20:29Z")
> [@CorneaGenii](#): > > Just to clarify. So she’s being programmed, escapes long enough to call the President, gets shot at by Amy, then later meets Amy’s flesh avatar in the orphanage, escapes the suit, winds up in New York, regenerates, and ends up in Leadworth growing up with Amy and Rory. Correct? Yes - except I’m not sure I’d use ‘escape’ for when she calls the President. Presumably it’s when nobody with the Silence is around just at the moment, but she certainly hasn’t escaped the suit at that point, because that’s what lets her call the President. > [@CorneaGenii](#): > > Maybe I phrased the question wrong. Since Amy, in the restored timeline, remembers killing Madame Kovarian and presumably the reason why, wouldn’t she recognize the Eye-Patch Lady who kept appearing randomly, even if it was only her Flesh avatar that was seeing her? If Amy remembered killing her and why, wouldn’t she know what would transpire at Demon’s Run? This was the reason for asking the previous question. I get the feeling that she only gains these memories at a point in her own personal timeline after the Doctor dropped her and Rory off in “The God Complex”, though I’m not sure exactly how that would work. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/544 "2011-10-02T11:01:04Z")
So did the doctor tell River his real name or not? In the Silence in the Library Doctor 11 tells Donna that River told him his real name. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/545 "2011-10-02T11:31:48Z")
I still don’t get it. So – Time will end if The Doctor doesn’t die at the lake, because The Silence managed to arrange to make that a Fixed Point. OK, on board so far. So why does “hide inside a robot so it looks like he died” work to “fool” time and the fixed point? Surely the point was that he had to die, not that it had to look like he was dying? If it’s that easy (“Oh, well, I’ll just fool time and make it look like I died - time’s pretty dumb, it’ll fall for it!”) then it was a pretty easy situation to get out of. Plus Moffat said specifically that The Doctor died in that scene, as did Canton Evereret III. Those weren’t clever plays on words or tricks - doesn’t that just mean both the writer and the character lied? Nah. Still not getting it. > [@](#): > > It’s called Doctor Who because we don’t know who he is. If we ever find out then that’s the end of the show. Huh? Who says? ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/546 "2011-10-02T12:26:47Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > I still don’t get it. So – > > Time will end if The Doctor doesn’t die at the lake, because The Silence managed to arrange to make that a Fixed Point. OK, on board so far. > > So why does “hide inside a robot so it looks like he died” work to “fool” time and the fixed point? Surely the point was that he had to die, not that it had to look like he was dying? If it’s that easy (“Oh, well, I’ll just fool time and make it look like I died - time’s pretty dumb, it’ll fall for it!”) then it was a pretty easy situation to get out of. > > Plus Moffat said specifically that The Doctor died in that scene, as did Canton Evereret III. Those weren’t clever plays on words or tricks - doesn’t that just mean both the writer and the character lied? > > Nah. Still not getting it. > > Huh? Who says? I kind of buy the bit about the fixed point - what really makes time degenerate is changing the way people remember events, not changing the underlying reality of the events. If Amy and River and Rory remember him surviving at Silencio lake, then that changes an awful lot, especially because they met the Doctor earlier in his timeline right after, and went back to 1969 where they met Canton, and Amy as the girl in the spacesuit, and so on. You get such a cascade of changes in the time-space continuum that it destabilizes. However, if all the witnesses see it happening exactly as it’s supposed to, then it becomes a quantum indeterminate event just what the original fixed point was. 😉 Canton wasn’t lying, because he’s not in on the truth. Moffat might be telling the truth in a certain sense - if he believes that the Doctor died originally, and then was able to squeeze through the fixed point to save his own life. Or maybe there’s a rule number two of Doctor Who… Rule number two: Moffat lies. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/547 "2011-10-02T12:43:53Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Doctor who? Who is the Doctor? > There was a real Doctor and a real TARDIS inside the Tesselecta - they may have been able to use either one or both to give a regeneration effect to the Tesselecta. Yes, but at the end of that episode, we see Melody Pond giving off regeneration effects, and that’s a bit harder to explain. It really does seem like a \*doc ex machina \*. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/548 "2011-10-02T13:10:02Z")
> [@CorneaGenii](#): > > And on a completely irrelevant note, I strenuously object to the marriage of the Doctor and River Song. Having Amy and Rory aboard the TARDIS worked, but now he’s got the wife AND the in-laws traveling with him. A bit “domestic”, no? Now all they need is a baby, and you’ve got The Wacky Adventures of the Family Who…In Spaaaaaace. > ] Now, if the baby is a muppet dinosaur baby that calls the Doctor the Doctor and everyone else “not the Doctor” I’m in baby. He could even have his own little adventures by himself in the bowels of the Tardis. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/549 "2011-10-02T13:20:20Z")
Meh. Very, VERY glad this series is over. Hopefully next year Moffatt can sort it out and get us some decent Who again. And please, no more sodding River Song. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/550 "2011-10-02T14:06:22Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yes, because they are the new archenemy, instead of the Daleks, Cybermen, or some variation on Time Lords. Finally. And a creepy one too. And not lame like the stupid Cybermen. Never did like them. Unless they trapped you in a closet I don’t see how they’re much of a threat. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > And he’s a time traveler who ages particularly slowly, so in his subjective near term, they’ll just think it’s him from before they killed him. He pretended that he had aged 200 years between “The God Complex” and “The Wedding of River Song.” He could be having adventures in that 200 years as far as they know. Now, they time travel too, and they may find that he’s still a risk, but they may not be so quick to mess with the young guy they think they have already killed, so it buys him some subjective time. Maybe, maybe not. I think he implied pretty heavily that he’d been zooming around trying to avoid his fate for some time. The only question is if he used up his 200 years. Either way, the Silence have no way of know if what The Doctor did and is doing is new or old. > [@chrisk](#): > > I kind of buy the bit about the fixed point - what really makes time degenerate is changing the way people remember events, not changing the underlying reality of the events. If Amy and River and Rory remember him surviving at Silencio lake, then that changes an awful lot, especially because they met the Doctor earlier in his timeline right after, and went back to 1969 where they met Canton, and Amy as the girl in the spacesuit, and so on. Well, I think the most important part is that **Amy** and **Rory** (and maybe Oldest River) had to see him die to ‘fool’ time because they are extremely special. They have catalogs in their heads of reality after reality that hasn’t happened anymore. I think there’s quite a bit of power inside of their heads because of what they’ve been through. > [@amanset](#): > > Meh. Very, VERY glad this series is over. Hopefully next year Moffatt can sort it out and get us some decent Who again. Disagree. I thought it’s all been exceptionally well done. Though I’d still like to know why the TARDIS went blooie - unless she did it to give The Doctor a chance to save the universe after it all went bad. > [@amanset](#): > > And please, no more sodding River Song. Agree on that one. She’s become far too much of a overly-recurring character. Keep the show about The Doctor and his companions. If she’s a companion, fine, but if she’s just going to keep popping up out of nowhere whenever she feels like it, that I don’t like. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/551 "2011-10-02T14:08:03Z")
I liked it. I certainly liked it better than the RTD series endings. It wasn’t as complicated as I was hoping. I think the can just let River be for the next while- they’ve answered her mystery, she is the Doctor’s wife and she kills him, and the rest of her/their lives will have her popping in and out sporadically, but they don’t have to focus on her anymore. The carnivourous skulls were ridiculous… ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/552 "2011-10-02T14:14:05Z")
> [@Lissla\_Lissar](#): > > The carnivourous skulls were ridiculous.. Probably wouldn’t have been so bad if the FX hadn’t been so bad. When the guy fell into the pit my wife commented, “That’s the worst special effect I’ve ever seen on this show”. The worst part is it was a bad effect AND that it was an unnecessary effect. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/553 "2011-10-02T14:46:44Z")
My wife and I really hope the River Song era is over. PLEASE!?!?? ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/554 "2011-10-02T18:03:33Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > My wife and I really hope the River Song era is over. PLEASE!?!?? I don’t care for what Moffat did to her character as [recapped here](http://io9.com/5844553/why-this-years-doctor-who-finale-was-mostly-better-than-last-years): > [@](#): > > River Song was such a shiny character, full of endless possibility, and she hit her high point in some of the early Matt Smith stories. > > […] > > I’m sure we’ll see River Song again, but I’m also sure that her story is basically played out. We’ve seen her birth and her death, and we’ve apparently gotten answers to all the major questions about her. And honestly, her character has lost most of its appeal at this point — she’s now the psychopath who blackmailed the Doctor into marrying her by holding the universe for ransom, and then took the fall for him. Once she was locked up for a crime that the Doctor basically framed her for, he took pity on her and led her on some fun adventures. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/555 "2011-10-02T20:49:39Z")
She’ll have to come back at some point, since the Doctor hasn’t told her his name… ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/556 "2011-10-02T21:31:50Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > I still don’t get it. So – > > Time will end if The Doctor doesn’t die at the lake, because The Silence managed to arrange to make that a Fixed Point. OK, on board so far. > > So why does “hide inside a robot so it looks like he died” work to “fool” time and the fixed point? Surely the point was that he had to die, not that it had to look like he was dying? If it’s that easy (“Oh, well, I’ll just fool time and make it look like I died - time’s pretty dumb, it’ll fall for it!”) then it was a pretty easy situation to get out of. > > Plus Moffat said specifically that The Doctor died in that scene, as did Canton Evereret III. Those weren’t clever plays on words or tricks - doesn’t that just mean both the writer and the character lied? > > Nah. Still not getting it. > > Huh? Who says? 1. Yes, Moffat and Everet apparently did lie. 2. It looks like the Tesselecta getting shot is a fixed point in time. As long as River shoots that, everything is fine. The Doctor saying he’s the one who has to die is a lie, to fool everybody into thinking that when it’s all over, he’ll really be dead. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/557 "2011-10-02T22:02:01Z")
I’m probably in the Minority. But, I want to see River travel with the Doctor and fall in love. We’d need a younger River that isn’t in love at first. The Doctor knows their potential future and takes her traveling. Not as a companion. But, as a future love. Younger River/Melody was impulsive and a bit dangerous. She still has the training from the Silence. The Doctor will need to gradually convince her to give up violence as a first choice for problems. Take it slow. Maybe after a couple seasons things heat up and there’s a real romance on the Tardis. Since this has never happened with any of the companions. It would be something new and unique for Doctor Who. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/558 "2011-10-02T22:11:58Z")
I kind of want River on as a regular as well, but…we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/559 "2011-10-02T22:15:22Z")
Really, really liked the finale. Not perfect, but it hit the notes I wanted. Shocked at the complaints about the cheesy skull SFX – I thought it was great. There’s something about bad VFX that makes me love it all the more. The first act adventure story was fantastic. The mashed time intro was goofy fun at its best. Doesn’t really hold up to close scrutiny, but why would you scrutinize it closely? The revelations about the Silence were great. “Doctor _Who_?” was a fantastic touch. I think it did a good job of addressing the whole “Amy is River’s mom; why isn’t she more upset?” thing in a very sidelong way. Given that she was never aware of being pregnant, wasn’t necessarily choosing to be a mother, knows her child is safe / magnificant, still gets to talk to River, has seen a whole lot of crazy in her life, and still has a ful life to lead with Rory, I think her reaction is…acceptible. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860/560 "2011-10-02T22:16:33Z")
I liked it overall, even though most of the resolutions ended up being not all that surprising – though even that seemed played with a wink. But what I really like about this ending is the opportunity to jettison a bit of accumulated baggage, have a bit of a fresh start – the Doctor had become too big, too high profile; his ‘death’ allows him to return to a little more unencumbered adventuring, rather than always being at the center of everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-series-six-part-ii/593860.md?page=29)