# Doctor Who: The End of Time - SPOILERS! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 21, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459 "2009-11-21T21:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/121 "2010-01-04T12:16:18Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Obi-Wan is gay ? :eek: Not sure about Obi Wan, but Alec Guinness was. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/122 "2010-01-04T12:33:57Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > Not sure about Obi Wan, but Alec Guinness was. I thuoght he was married? Could be wrong though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/123 "2010-01-04T13:36:40Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > You’re right. The Master seemed quite pleased by the thought of Hell on Earth “My kind of place!” It was only after Dalton made it clear that the Master wasn’t welcome that he soured on the thought. But he still had his moment of redemption. He could have let Dalton kill the Doctor. I mean, he knew that he was going to die, why not get the satisfaction of seeing the Doctor obliterated first? It was what he always wanted, after all. But instead of standing by, he sacrificed himself so the Doctor could survive the battle. Revenge. After Rassilon stated that the Master was “diseased … albeit by our doing” he recognized how he had been used … tortured … since looking into the vortex by Rassilon’s machinations his whole life. And if he has some clever plan to return - and of course he does - he is back to wanting at least one other time lord around, even as an enemy. He could only kill the Doctor once he knew there would be others again, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/124 "2010-01-04T13:48:41Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Well, I think he did it the first time round, thus the time-lock and the end of the war. It’s kinda vague - RTD once said that he mentions things in the Time War (Skaro Degradations, The Horde of Travesties, and The Could-Have-Been King and his army of Mean-Whiles and Never-Weres; the Fall or Arcadia; Davros originally falling during the war at the Gates of Elysium flying his ship into the jaws of the Nightmare Child; and other evocative names) but felt that George Lucas ruined the Clone Wars by explaining them, and what was in your imagination was always going to be better than what happened onscreen. So he mentions these things with exotic names and leaves you to fill in the blanks. > > The “Moment” is clearly something to do with the time lock, but I doubt we’ll ever get an explanation. Let’s face it, the Shadow Procalamation and the Medusa Cascade didn’t turn out to be anywhere near as cool as their names sounded. > > So, uh, in short - I don’t know the answer to your question. 🙂 The whole “[Time Lock](http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Time-lock)”, is typical of RTDs stories, you can’t get back to that point unless we need you to e.g. Dalek Caan. If the Time Lords created the time lock, then they should have been able to unlock it anyway and similarly if the Doctor put it in place. The Daleks didn’t do it as far as we know. For me this whole concept was fundamentally silly, surely the whole point of a “time war” is the problem that battles will be re-fought over and over as each side attempts to change the past. This idea was used far better in “[The Book of the War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_War)” a spin off by Lawrence Miles, loosely based upon events in Doctor Who. I like the idea of the mystery of the time war, but things like the time lock cheapen the whole thing. Plus if the Daleks can come back umpteen times, why not the Time Lords? What I really want to see, but am unlikely to is the regeneration of the 8th Doctor into the 9th. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/125 "2010-01-04T14:27:59Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Well, obviously it \*was \*regular glass, but within the context of the episode the Doctor did refer to it as (I forget the name) some type of glass that nothing can get through. Vinvocci glass, made by the “cactus people” that made the gate. The Vinvocci are tall and green as opposed to the Zocci who are short and red (I assume that’s a reference to Bannakaffalatta from _Voyage of the Damned_). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/126 "2010-01-04T14:29:46Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > If the Time Lords created the time lock, then they should have been able to unlock it anyway and similarly if the Doctor put it in place. The Daleks didn’t do it as far as we know. Really? IME a lock will typically open just fine from one side and is impossible from the other. Ever been to a jail? The guys with the keys can open the doors just fine. It doesn’t matter whether or not the guys in the cells are locksmiths. > [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > For me this whole concept was fundamentally silly, surely the whole point of a “time war” is the problem that battles will be re-fought over and over as each side attempts to change the past. But The Doctor can’t go back and alter his own past, and I’m betting nobody else can, either. Otherwise, The Master could have just gone back and strangled The Doctor in his crib - but since he’s already tangled with The Doctor it becomes impossible without creating a paradox. > [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > I like the idea of the mystery of the time war, but things like the time lock cheapen the whole thing. Plus if the Daleks can come back umpteen times, why not the Time Lords? First of all, when they did come back, it was with help from outside the time lock. Let’s see, where did we just see that? Second, the Time lords DID escape the time war - specifically The Doctor, The Master, and eventually all the rest, for at least a little while. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/127 "2010-01-04T15:28:44Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Really? IME a lock will typically open just fine from one side and is impossible from the other. Ever been to a jail? The guys with the keys can open the doors just fine. It doesn’t matter whether or not the guys in the cells are locksmiths. Not been to jail, but I think the analogy breaks down as the Time Lords should have the appropriate lock picks/explosives to escape as their technology is better than that of who/what ever put the lock into place. Even if the one way lock is true, then they had the ability to pre-empt it and prevent it being put into place. > [@](#): > > But The Doctor can’t go back and alter his own past, and I’m betting nobody else can, either. Otherwise, The Master could have just gone back and strangled The Doctor in his crib - but since he’s already tangled with The Doctor it becomes impossible without creating a paradox. I accept that up to a point, but those laws are IMO self imposed by the Time Lords rather than something inherent to the universe. In times of war they could choose to violate those laws in the same way we and the US did with rendition. > [@](#): > > First of all, when they did come back, it was with help from outside the time lock. Let’s see, where did we just see that? Second, the Time lords DID escape the time war - specifically The Doctor, The Master, and eventually all the rest, for at least a little while. Yes they had outside help, but it was something that they created from inside the time lock. They caused the Master to hear the drum beat and they also sent him the diamond to bring them back, thus they were the architects of their own escape. Plus if a mere Dalek could break in and rescue Davros, the time lords could have arranged to have an agent or two in the outside universe to break the lock afterwards. IIRC the Doctor and the Master were never time locked and both ran away before the time war was time locked. I don’t mean to sound too negative, this is Doctor Who and is better than anything else on tv at present, but I always find RTDs big endings to be a bit disappointing (no double entendre intended). Overall these episodes weren’t bad, but they could have been a lot better with a bit more thought. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/128 "2010-01-04T15:46:08Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Well, I think he did it the first time round, thus the time-lock and the end of the war. It’s kinda vague - RTD once said that he mentions things in the Time War (Skaro Degradations, The Horde of Travesties, and The Could-Have-Been King and his army of Mean-Whiles and Never-Weres; the Fall or Arcadia; Davros originally falling during the war at the Gates of Elysium flying his ship into the jaws of the Nightmare Child; and other evocative names) but felt that George Lucas ruined the Clone Wars by explaining them, and what was in your imagination was always going to be better than what happened onscreen. So he mentions these things with exotic names and leaves you to fill in the blanks. > > The “Moment” is clearly something to do with the time lock, but I doubt we’ll ever get an explanation. Let’s face it, the Shadow Procalamation and the Medusa Cascade didn’t turn out to be anywhere near as cool as their names sounded. > > So, uh, in short - I don’t know the answer to your question. 🙂 Very good points though. Now that you mention it, the Clone Wars were much more mysterious and cool in my head. So were the Time Lords frankly. I loves me some Dalton, though. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/129 "2010-01-04T16:38:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > (I assume that’s a reference to Bannakaffalatta from _Voyage of the Damned_). You assume correctly. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/130 "2010-01-04T16:50:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Vinvocci glass, made by the “cactus people” that made the gate. The Vinvocci are tall and green as opposed to the Zocci who are short and red (I assume that’s a reference to Bannakaffalatta from _Voyage of the Damned_). Shameful people though. Did you know cyborgs only very recently received equal rights? It’s terrible the way they’ve been treated. They’re also fat-ist. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/131 "2010-01-04T17:19:26Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Very good points though. Now that you mention it, the Clone Wars were much more mysterious and cool in my head. So were the Time Lords frankly. I loves me some Dalton, though. I did kinda like that it was revelled that at the end the time war the Time Lords had become a bunch of arrogant, overzealous and overpowerful assholes. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/132 "2010-01-04T17:29:26Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I did kinda like that it was revelled that at the end the time war the Time Lords had become a bunch of arrogant, overzealous and overpowerful assholes. I didn’t much care for it at first, nor for Dalton’s Vader impression. The Time Lords have always been arrogant and overpowerful, but overzealous and assholish are major turnarounds from their former extremely restrained, overly bureaucratic selves. The one thing that somewhat saved it for me was one word: Rassilon. If he is somehow back and in charge of the Time Lords, some \*very bad shit \*must have gone down during the Time War. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/133 "2010-01-04T17:52:12Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I did kinda like that it was revelled that at the end the time war the Time Lords had become a bunch of arrogant, overzealous and overpowerful assholes. Yeah. But Dalton could probably emote that if they had him naked. I guess I was hoping for a more up to date imagining than a bunch of old farts standing around in Dune apparel. 🙂 The Time Lords really should have been much cooler than the Doctor. That makes for the best villains, IMHO. The Master was cool this time. He uses his Time Lord powers like a real man, what with those energy blasts and flying. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/134 "2010-01-04T18:55:23Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > The one thing that somewhat saved it for me was one word: Rassilon. If he is somehow back and in charge of the Time Lords, some \*very bad shit \*must have gone down during the Time War. I really have to question weather it’s THE Rassilon or not. In “The Five Doctors” he was shown to be very wise and extremely powerful. More powerful than Timothy Dalton was shown to be. In my opinion anyway. > [@levdrakon](#): > > He uses his Time Lord powers like a real man, what with those energy blasts and flying. I don’t think those were Time Lord powers. Those seemed to be powers he gained from his resurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/135 "2010-01-04T19:09:27Z")
Yes, I’m pretty sure it was meant to be THE Rassilon. I think the point the Doctor made was that the Time War fucked things up for a lot of people, and I’m sure that was no different for Rassilon too. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/136 "2010-01-04T19:29:44Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I really have to question weather it’s THE Rassilon or not. In “The Five Doctors” he was shown to be very wise and extremely powerful. More powerful than Timothy Dalton was shown to be. That is a question; I think it would be stupid to just throw out the name Rassilon and not have it be “the” Rassilon, but I also consider Davies a pretty sloppy writer, so it wouldn’t surprise me. Wise and powerful, sure, but even good guys can go bad and he’s got the whole corporeal thing now to deal with. The Glove of Doom seemed to be serving him nicely up until the Master whipped out his newly acquired superpowers. But, really, I think Davies, and thus the new series, has only been interested in previous Doctor history when it served his needs and tossed it aside when it didn’t suit him (e.g. origin of Cybermen). I’m not sure this mention of Rassilon need have anything to do with what we previously know about Rassilon, but I prefer to fanwank it that way for the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/137 "2010-01-04T19:36:18Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > But, really, I think Davies, and thus the new series, has only been interested in previous Doctor history when it served his needs and tossed it aside when it didn’t suit him (e.g. origin of Cybermen). In the original run of the show the seventh Doctor destroyed all of the Cybermen from this universe, so since Davies wanted to re-introduce the Cybermen, I don’t see a problem with getting some new ones from another universe. Although personally, I wish a dead enemy would stay dead, but, whatever. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure this mention of Rassilon need have anything to do with what we previously know about Rassilon, but I prefer to fanwank it that way for the moment. It could very well be the actual Rassilon. I’ll be a bit disappointed if it is, but I’ll wait and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/138 "2010-01-04T20:18:04Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Yeah. But Dalton could probably emote that if they had him naked. I guess I was hoping for a more up to date imagining than a bunch of old farts standing around in Dune apparel. 🙂 The Time Lords really should have been much cooler than the Doctor. That makes for the best villains, IMHO. The Master was cool this time. He uses his Time Lord powers like a real man, what with those energy blasts and flying. I agree that the Time Lords seemed a bit square and dated, which is why I think it’s so lucky they got Dalton, who added much needed Gravitas to the situation. If they Time Lords were coming back for an extended duration, I think Davies could have retconned the Dune / South American look away a bit, but since it was such a short appearance, he really had to use that look to make the whole thing “read.” Davies has, I think, been pretty good at not stepping on the toes of the original series. The revived series does a lot of things differently, but (as far as I’m aware) it’s pretty rare that he’s directly contradicted major elements of the original. I think Rassilon was definitely THE Rassilon. Differences could be accounted for by regeneration, the years of all-out war, and the weakening of Time Lord society in general. I don’t think there’s any reason to assume it’s a different BEING just because his personality seemed radically different. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/139 "2010-01-04T21:54:03Z")
I’d still like to see other renegade Time Lords around. The vast emptiness of white the Doctor encountered during the original run could protect any numer of 'em from the War. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459/140 "2010-01-04T21:56:42Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I think “geronimo” is his new catch phrase as it was in the trailer for season 5 too. ☹ Gosh, I hope not. That’s going to get tiresome quick. I’ve never cared much for catch phrases. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-spoilers/518459.md?page=8)