# Document exposes what the RNC really thinks of its donors, admits to using "fear." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303 "2010-03-04T17:44:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/41 "2010-03-04T21:25:54Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Look at the former Soviet Union, or any state-directed economy. It’s not the most efficient answer to all issues, but I think Adam Smith’s invisible hand is the \*default \*answer to any market, until there’s a compelling reason to think otherwise. He probably overspoke, but any capitalist would at least lean toward free market until seeing that it doesn’t work well in a particular case. Adam Smith supported regulation also, especially of banks. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/42 "2010-03-04T21:26:55Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Prove to me that the free market is the most efficient answer to all issues. What is the free market value of pi? More [Free Market Idiocy from the Pentagon:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction_market) > [@](#): > > In July 2003, the U.S. Department of Defense publicized a Policy Analysis Market and on their website speculated that additional topics for markets might include terrorist attacks. A critical backlash quickly denounced the program as a “terrorism futures market” and the Pentagon hastily canceled the program. The key to a free market being the most efficient answer lies in precisely _which_ issues are under consideration. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/43 "2010-03-04T21:28:37Z")
There is not now, nor has there ever been, any such thing as a “free market”. The wonders of the free market are pure theory. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/44 "2010-03-04T21:32:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Here are my postulates: we start from the proposition that the free market is the most efficient answer to all issues. For anyone proposing a more socialistic solution, the burden is on them to provide compelling reasons. So for the military, police, fire, and the TVA, that burden has been carried. For UHC, it has not (yet). Perfectly. fine postulate. Your problem is in ignoring hundreds of years of economic history which falsify it - unless you consider child labor, poisoned food, and factories that regularly kill people efficient. BTW, if you say the healthcare proposal is socialistic in that it moves that way, I’m sure you agree that the Bush national security policies were fascistic - or at least totalitarian if you want to nitpick the definition of fascism more than you seem to want to do for the definition of socialism. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/45 "2010-03-04T21:38:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here are my postulates: we start from the proposition that the free market is the most efficient answer to all issues. For anyone proposing a more socialistic solution, the burden is on them to provide compelling reasons. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t accept your postulate in the first place, by the way. > [@DianaG](#): > > What’s this “we” shit, kemosabe? “We” are Americans, of course! So while **Mach Truck** snarked at me --snarked, I say!-- for my mockingly curt reply in post #7, that does seem to be, essentially, **Bricker** ’s argument. Unless there’s some other “we,” and his reasoning that we (there’s that word again) default to the idea that free market is the most efficient way to address these issues, is something other than “Well, 'cause that’s the way we always done it in America!” ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/46 "2010-03-04T21:42:06Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > “We” are Americans, of course! Nitpick - ‘we’ is _real American_ Americans. Did you hear they put a black guy in the White House? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/47 "2010-03-04T21:57:00Z")
Yeah, _they_ did. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/48 "2010-03-04T23:50:37Z")
The sad thing is, those dumbass Republicans would simply wipe their drool from the corners of their mouth-breathing lips and blame it on Dems or some shit like that for forcing Reps to resort to these tactics. You could throw feces in their faces and as long as it wasn’t a Dem, they’d explode into applause ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/49 "2010-03-05T00:59:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here are my postulates: we start from the proposition that the free market is the most efficient answer to all issues. > [@](#): > > As my high school debate teacher was find of repeating, “A gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied.” Kinda answered yourself there, dintcha? What would your debate teacher say about your use of the word “socialism”? Hell, what would your _ethics_ teacher say, if he weren’t a Jesuit? > [@](#): > > For anyone proposing a more socialistic solution, the burden is on them to provide compelling reasons. So for the military, police, fire, and the TVA, that burden has been carried. For UHC, it has not (yet). Only among the willful or gullible or lying, as the many many people in every other civilized democracy, all of which do have it and for whom it works fine, have been trying to tell you. But you can continue to wallow in fearmongering and lies if you like, since all the actual facts are against you. And you can continue to demonstrate to the few remaining doubters left here what you really stand for, if you wish. You’re doing a damn fine job of that, at least. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/50 "2010-03-05T02:12:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because, of course, Obama is not socialist, and therefore this accusation is ridiculous. > > OK, it’s time to beat the shit out of this notion, so often repeated around here that it’s gospel. > > 1. It’s true: Obama is not a socialist. > 2. It’s true, nonetheless: many of his program proposals, especially UHC, are socialist. > > On the SDMB, I obviously don’t need to defend point #1. > > Point #2: it’s fair in summary terms to describe a proposed program as “socialist” if it moves a given activity in a “socialist” direction. [Socialism](http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/overview/calculation.pdf): where use-values are more determinative than exchange-values. > > So no, Obama is not a socialist. But, yes, UHC is a socialist concept. UHC is usually understood to be Universal Health Care. Obama has not proposed UHC as it exists in all other developed nations, mainly a government run health service. He has proposed requiring all citizens to buy health insurance from private companies much the same way most states require all drivers to purchase automobile insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/51 "2010-03-05T02:34:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here are my postulates: we start from the proposition that the free market is the most efficient answer to all issues. For anyone proposing a more socialistic solution, the burden is on them to provide compelling reasons. So for the military, police, fire, and the TVA, that burden has been carried. It’s unclear to me why we start from that postulate when government has provided military, police, fire, and utilities since long before capitalism existed. Why should we not start from the postulate that free marketers should carry the burden of proving that government is not the best solution? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/52 "2010-03-05T02:35:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …if he weren’t a Jesuit?.. I tease about this, but in fairness, the Jesuit order’s emphasis on education is more or less in line with our Cecilian values, i.e., the struggle against ignorance and cognitive dissonance. One can hardly be surprised at their reputation for rationalization and logical slickness, given survival of hundreds of years of Church politics. Despite abundant negative images, the Jesuits are, to the astonishment of many, central to many positive programs. Which nobody ever expects. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/53 "2010-03-05T02:40:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I tease about this, but in fairness, the Jesuit order’s emphasis on education is more or less in line with our Cecilian values, i.e., the struggle against ignorance and cognitive dissonance. One can hardly be surprised at their reputation for rationalization and logical slickness, given survival of hundreds of years of Church politics. Despite abundant negative images, the Jesuits are, to the surprise of many, central to many positive programs. Which nobody ever expects. Well, that’s why, in John Paul II’s successful attempt to return Catholicism to the Dark Ages, one of his prongs was to remove Jesuits (and other priests) from electoral politics. The days you refer to are (unfortunately) gone. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/54 "2010-03-05T02:48:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Here’s the reason TO add “one more socialistic program” – because if we don’t, the country will go bankrupt. Rebuttal? Simple: if we add that one more socialistic program of UHC, the country will go bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/55 "2010-03-05T02:49:42Z")
I know several Catholics, and am impressed by their love for and devotion to their Church, as well as their affectionate but steadfast refusal to allow its leadership to make any of their personal decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/56 "2010-03-05T03:05:59Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Simple: if we add that one more socialistic program of UHC, the country will go bankrupt. Except that it won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/57 "2010-03-05T03:06:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I know several Catholics, and am impressed by their love for and devotion to their Church, as well as their affectionate but steadfast refusal to allow its leadership to make any of their personal decisions. Yes, I also know Catholics, as in: every member of my family that is still religious. If you do not realize that the Catholic Church, in general, even in the U.S., has not grown more conservative in the last 30 years, you are sadly mistaken. As a matter of fact, only two years after John Paul II’s election in 1978, he forced the likes of Fr. Drinan, a liberal Democrat Jesuit priest and Congressman, to withdraw from electoral politics. This action was general and world-wide, and was primarily aimed at Latin American priests who were politically engaged on the liberal side. You’re seriously behind the times. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/58 "2010-03-05T03:13:32Z")
I’m a registered Republican\*, and I’ve received in the mail from the national party “surveys” that are disguised fear mongering fund raising requests. All of the questions on this “survey” are so loaded, that I laughed at them, then threw them away. Honestly, this is nothing new from the national Republican party. I’m more of a libertarian in my beliefs then anything, and I’ve gotten sick of the way the Republican party has been operating in recent times. They are honestly driving people like me away with this BS. I voted for the Libertarian candidate on the last presidential election, and if they keep up, I’ll probably never vote for a Republican for national office again. National politics has become just a vote of the lesser of two evils! \*as in literally, my state (Georgia) requires you to register for a party to vote in their primary. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/59 "2010-03-05T03:49:57Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) have long been the best means of marketing in America. Sowing FUD is the basic strategy behind every mailing I’ve ever received from Planned Parenthood. Some targets of marketing will buy into this sort of stuff completely; most of us (of whatever political stripe) take it with many grains of salt. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303/60 "2010-03-05T04:09:28Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > …You’re seriously behind the times. Sorry. I’ll get over it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/document-exposes-what-the-rnc-really-thinks-of-its-donors-admits-to-using-fear/531303.md?page=4)