# Dodd-Frank Kills the Congo \[ed.: Application of Law of Unintended Consequences\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974 "2011-08-08T18:44:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/161 "2011-08-11T01:43:51Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Why on earth would you trust a corporation? I said I’d rather have a government than trust a corporation. Should I have put a comma in there somewhere or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/162 "2011-08-11T03:23:34Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I said I’d rather have a government than trust a corporation. Should I have put a comma in there somewhere or something? I believe **emac** ’s point is that trust isn’t a necessary factor in a free market system. The corporation looks out for its greedy self, you look out for your greedy self, ???, profit! You have to end up putting your trust _somewhere_, though, otherwise you’ll spend 80% of each day being paranoid just to be productive the other 20%. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/163 "2011-08-11T05:17:15Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I believe **emac** ’s point is that trust isn’t a necessary factor in a free market system. Of course it is. I don’t have the time, training, or equipment to verify that my free market trading partners have upheld their end of every transaction I engage in. Government sends someone out to test the accuracy of the pumps at the gas station. Without them, I have to trust my local station or carry around equipment to accurately measure every gallon of gas I buy. And that’s just one example. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/164 "2011-08-11T06:00:09Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I believe **emac** ’s point is that trust isn’t a necessary factor in a free market system. The corporation looks out for its greedy self, you look out for your greedy self, ???, profit! The problem with that is that you cannot look out for yourself. First, as already said you don’t have the resources or skills - no one person does. And second, a corporation as an organization is far more powerful than you are. You need something to counterbalance its advantage of size - namely, a government. Also, in an unregulated society you can pretty much rely on all corporations being ruthlessly out to get you. The bad will drive out the good; a high paying, high quality corporation can’t compete on an even playing field with a predatory one that pays slave wages to provide cheap, poisonous garbage. And since ethical businesspeople wouldn’t produce such a thing, they too will be forced out of business and only the most amoral will be left. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/165 "2011-08-11T06:04:14Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Of course it is. I don’t have the time, training, or equipment to verify that my free market trading partners have upheld their end of every transaction I engage in. Government sends someone out to test the accuracy of the pumps at the gas station. Without them, I have to trust my local station or carry around equipment to accurately measure every gallon of gas I buy. > > And that’s just one example. Ah but see, in libertarian la-la land, those gas stations that skimp on the equipment or deliberately set out to scam you out of your money by making you pay for a full gallon when only serving 0.8 would automatically fail and be driven to ruin by the ruthless competition with the honest ones, which the smart consumers would naturally flock to ! And those mopes who do get scammed, well, they’re just dumb idiots who should have been savvier. Serves them right for not knowing how to control every little detail of their lives, or have people to do that for them. Meanwhile, in actual tangible reality…“ha ha screw those idiots, boys, let’s all agree to fuck 'em on the gas and run anyone who doesn’t want to play that way out of town. What the idiots gonna do, walk ? I don’t think so. Oh and while we’re at it, why do we pay our attendants so damn much ? Let’s also agree no one’s giving these chumps more 'n 5 bucks a week and if they don’t like it they can go to the soup kitchen or something.” _chomp cigar_ Newsflash: unregulated economy & markets have, in fact, already been thoroughly beta tested over the last, oh, 6000 years or so. Turns out, in practice they’re not so fair or consumer-oriented (or employee-oriented for that matter). How do y’all geniuses figure those regulations, traceability rules, inspections and safety nets came to be in the first place ? ETA: you want to take a look at an honest to god unregulated economy ? You’ve got one already: the drug trade. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/166 "2011-08-11T06:33:44Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It’s fine if you want to believe that a company’s motive is profit and that may or may not align with public safety. But what I’m curious to know is what motive do you assign to the government? > > When you consider the Bush administration, was their first duty to all of its people? > \*When they ignored a memo that said, “al Quaeda planning to attack the US” > \*When they lied about WMDs in Iraq and their motivation for going in. > \*When they cut taxes for the rich while running a massive deficit and two wars? > \*When they ignored warnings about hurricane Katrina? > \*When they deregulated the banking industry and sat back while the financial world crumbled? > \*When they let Lehman Brother’s fail? > \*When they pushed for the Defense of Marriage Act? > \*When they ignored inspecting federal interstate highway bridges? > > If you can get \*\*elucidator \*\*and **Der Tris** to defend the Bush Administration than you might have a case that the government is looking out for your best interests. I managed to miss this post earlier. Yeah, government can totally screw the pooch, no doubt. But at least we can say that they failed at their job and hopefully get someone who can do it better. A CEO who did all of those things but raised his company’s earnings by 15% year over year has done his job and some folks would have us laud him for it. Worst case, well. We get the government we deserve. Without regulation, we have no informed say-so in how a company manages itself. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/167 "2011-08-11T11:18:18Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Has the government been able to fix the economy? Yes. Plenty of times. We’re also living through one of the worst examples of what happens to the economy when the government _stops_ doing what we need it to. Most of the time the best fix is prevention. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/168 "2011-08-11T11:46:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Has the government been able to fix the economy? We are less than two yers into the worst economic downturn in 80 years; did you expect it to be fixed by now? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/169 "2011-08-11T11:49:23Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > You have to end up putting your trust _somewhere_, though, otherwise you’ll spend 80% of each day being paranoid just to be productive the other 20%. Which is an accurate description of the libertarian mindset. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/170 "2011-08-11T11:54:55Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > No, it seems most people simply can’t. Hence the purpose of the OP. The majority of Americans would rather ban weed than tobacco. One is pretty much harmless, the other is responsible for 443,000 deaths per year. > > _More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined._ (from the CDC) > > Can you tell me why I can’t buy alcohol or a car on a Sunday? But I can by plenty of tobacco. Because you and whoever are around you don’t care enough to get it repealed, and you don’t care enough to move or go out of state. I can do all of that, and so can most other people. Yes, you as an individual have very little power. But that’s a feature, not a bug. The point is to diffuse power so no one person can ruin it all with a bad idea. The government is designed to move slowly, to minimize risk. Unfortunately for you, enough of the people had an idea you didn’t like to get it passed, and not enough care to stop it. But, unlike every other form of government, there’s something you can do about it. A government will wind up existing, no matter what. The only question is whether you will have any say. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/171 "2011-08-11T12:04:24Z")
Sorry, I see my point has already been said. I didn’t notice the second page. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/172 "2011-08-11T16:15:11Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes. Plenty of times. > > We’re also living through one of the worst examples of what happens to the economy when the government _stops_ doing what we need it to. Most of the time the best fix is prevention. They stopped regulating the financial sector to all intents and purposes. They set the markets free to bring us onwards and upwards to a greater level of prosperity! And after a few years of unprecedented freedom (unprecedented since the 1920s at least) our brave free market financial engineers made such a good, prosperous job of regulating themselves that they created the biggest financial meltdown since the 1930s and had to go begging the government to save them from bankrupcy and the country from economic collapse. It’s really hard to see how people could live through the events of the past few years and still believe in a clearly bankrupt ideology but it’s obviously possible. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/173 "2011-08-11T16:58:12Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > It’s really hard to see how people could live through the events of the past few years and still believe in a clearly bankrupt ideology but it’s obviously possible. It is stunning, really. I tend to make decisions quite empirically. Some folks here are so devoted to an ideology that it seems no amount of real world experience can alter their support. It’s kind of like people who propose that the world is going to end on a certain date. The expectation and rationale stay the same, but the date just keeps changing. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/174 "2011-08-11T22:51:05Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Lest people think that Mexico, Brazil and Italy don’t have an equivalent to the FDA: > > [The Mexican Ministry of Agriculture, Livestock, Rural Development, Fisheries and Food](http://www.sagarpa.gob.mx/English/Pages/Objectives.aspx) > > [Brazil’sNational Health Surveillance Agency](http://www.anvisa.gov.br/) > > [Italy’s National Institute of Health](http://www.iss.it/chis/?lang=2) > > And since the specific African country wasn’t mentioned, here’s a list of many: > > [International Organizations and Foreign Government Agencies](http://www.fda.gov/InternationalPrograms/Agreements/ucm131179.htm) What’s interesting about this list is that each agency will differ in a number of key regulations. What is the correct temperature for cooking pork? Should eggs be refrigerated or not? Should we be allowed to eat raw fish? Raw milk? Raw milk cheese? What if we age the cheese 1 month, 6 months, 12 months? It’s a lot like asking, ‘what is the correct speed limit?’ Or ‘what should the drinking age be set at?’ Most countries have a legal age for buying alcohol, and they tend to differ. What makes 21 safest? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/175 "2011-08-11T22:53:51Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What’s interesting about this list is that each agency will differ in a number of key regulations. What is the correct temperature for cooking pork? Should eggs be refrigerated or not? Should we be allowed to eat raw fish? Raw milk? Raw milk cheese? What if we age the cheese 1 month, 6 months, 12 months? But at least it’s consistent within any given country. Do you think that letting every single company establish their own standards would make things less confusing? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/176 "2011-08-11T23:16:52Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Of course it is. I don’t have the time, training, or equipment to verify that my free market trading partners have upheld their end of every transaction I engage in. Government sends someone out to test the accuracy of the pumps at the gas station. Without them, I have to trust my local station or carry around equipment to accurately measure every gallon of gas I buy. > > And that’s just one example. Another failed example, that’s really growing tiring. You very foolishly put your faith into a system that does not do what you think it does. How often do you think those pumps get inspected? How fucking complicated is it to measure a liquid? Is that really beyond your means? I know my car can take 10 gallons of gas. If the pump reads 12 I know there is something off. How do you guys function on a day to day basis? And why is it always the evil company fucking the pathetic little customer. Customers have no problem fucking with companies, if you don’t believe me hang out at Walmart’s return desk some time and watch the shit people come back with and the excuses they have. But a liberal return policy is a way for a company to assure customers that they’ll get what they paid for. Is that such a foreign concept to people? When you accept that a company’s motive is profit, they only way for them to make profit is through sales. How do you think they’ll convince people their spinach is safe? They’ll have to make assurances, guarantees, warranties, etc. When Hyundai wanted to convince you their cars weren’t crap, they offered the best warranty on the market. Other companies followed suit. So without government regulations, how would it work for you to go and buy spinach from a guy with a truck on the side of the road? Well, it would work just like right now when people buy things from road sides stands. Completely free from the benevolent eyes of the government, and people love it. They love it so much that Farmer’s Markets are crazy popular right now. Go to one and look at the crap people are selling without government oversight, cash only, completely anonymous. Seems to work just fine. Do you think those bottles of jam came from an inspected kitchen? During Christmas after the crash US companies bought significantly less Canadian lobster, such that the guys on the docks couldn’t find buyers for the product they had just caught. To cover their costs they loaded up trucks and went to Walmart parking lots with signs “Live lobster $5/lb.” People loved it, but there was no government oversight. How did people know they weren’t going to get poisoned? How did they know it was even a lobster the guy was selling? How did they verify the weight? Why didn’t everyone die? They could have gone to the grocery store and paid $10/lb to let the government pretend to protect them, but instead they chose to save money. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/177 "2011-08-11T23:18:52Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > But at least it’s consistent within any given country. Do you think that letting every single company establish their own standards would make things less confusing? Consistent within a given country? You have got to be kidding me, it is anything but consistent. Each state issues their own license and has their own health regulations, the federal are used has guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/178 "2011-08-11T23:20:26Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It is stunning, really. I tend to make decisions quite empirically. Some folks here are so devoted to an ideology that it seems no amount of real world experience can alter their support. Hello pot, have you met the kettle yet? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/179 "2011-08-11T23:29:25Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > They stopped regulating the financial sector to all intents and purposes. And what was their motivation? Isn’t the government supposed to protect us? Look out for us? > [@Bosstone](#): > > I managed to miss this post earlier. Yeah, government can totally screw the pooch, no doubt. But at least we can say that they failed at their job and hopefully get someone who can do it better. How’d that work out in 2004? > [@BigT](#): > > Yes, you as an individual have very little power. But that’s a feature, not a bug. The point is to diffuse power so no one person can ruin it all with a bad idea. The government is designed to move slowly, to minimize risk. Except I was told earlier that the great thing about government is that it can move swiftly to contain an outbreak to minimize risk. And as the OP pointed out, and in **Bosstone** ’s quote above, some times government screws up really badly. But we have very little power, and government moves slowly. So we’re stuck waiting for the next election cycle in the hopes the next guy can end the war and bring the troops home. That didn’t work so we waited four more years. > [@Bosstone](#): > > Without regulation, we have no informed say-so in how a company manages itself. You have all the power in the world to not buy their product or pay for their service. They need you as much as you need them. If you don’t like how it’s managed, don’t buy from them. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974/180 "2011-08-11T23:39:32Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Another failed example, that’s really growing tiring. > > You very foolishly put your faith into a system that does not do what you think it does. How often do you think those pumps get inspected? > > How fucking complicated is it to measure a liquid? Is that really beyond your means? I know my car can take 10 gallons of gas. If the pump reads 12 I know there is something off. Do you know if it’s off by .01 gallon? 'Cause over the course of one day’s customers, that’s a hell of a lot of gas. Say 200 customers a day, each putting an average of five gallons into their tanks. That’s an extra .05 gallons on each customer, multiplied by 200… say, 100 gallons. At a national average of $3.70, that’s _$375 dollars a day_ that the gas station would be stealing from its customers. But hey, it’s okay as long as nobody notices, right? That seems to be the Libertarian mindset, right there. Oh, but I’m sure you’ve got one of those magical gas tanks that tells you, to the ounce, exactly how much gas you’ve got in it at any time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dodd-frank-kills-the-congo-ed-application-of-law-of-unintended-consequences/591974.md?page=10)