# Does a Camaro w/ Auto Trans = a Sports Car? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609 "2014-05-16T21:30:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/42 "2014-05-18T03:46:59Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > ::: Sigh::: > Do you really want to argue automotive specifications and nomenclature with me? > After 40+ years in the automotive business which includes a stint managing a foreign car parts house and working on a professional racing team I feel fairly confident I know more about the subject than you do. > I’m glad you like your car and I hope you enjoy the hell out of it, but don’t tell people that it has"performance" engine bearings (it doesn’t) or that the wheels have thrust bearings (they don’t). You will only make yourself look not very bright to a real car guy. Well you are correct about the thrust bearings. I was making the assumption they were tapered roller bearings, but now looking it up they are something simpler. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/43 "2014-05-18T08:37:56Z")
**TriPolar** , f it makes you feel any better I don’t think any of the cars **Rick** mentioned had a screaming chicken on the hood from the factory. That means someone on that racing team must have been painting them on. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/44 "2014-05-18T09:18:24Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > […] > Mercedes 190SL, 300SL, 230-280SL > Corvette > Etc > > Modern sports cars? > Mazda MX-5, RX-7/8 > Mercedes SL, SLK, SLS > Current version Corvettes. Our '92 Mercedes 500SL? The Germans call it a roadster and since it’s a convertible it _is_ a bit heavy (for stiffness). Holy crap, do I love driving it though! On winding roads, it’s like … it’s like - I guess it’s like you’re in a dream. And the dream responds to your every touch. Best car I’ve ever driven by far. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/45 "2014-05-18T10:40:01Z")
Are the following ‘sports cars’?: BMW M3 sedan MB C-class AMG Audi S4/RS4 Subaru WRX STi Mitsubishi Evo VW Golf R ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/46 "2014-05-18T11:22:06Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > **TriPolar** , f it makes you feel any better I don’t think any of the cars **Rick** mentioned had a screaming chicken on the hood from the factory. That means someone on that racing team must have been painting them on. 🙂 I’m not exactly in the screaming chicken camp myself, but I do think the sports car tag has a lot more depth and breadth than the simple definition some prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/47 "2014-05-18T14:25:09Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Our '92 Mercedes 500SL? The Germans call it a roadster and since it’s a convertible it _is_ a bit heavy (for stiffness). Holy crap, do I love driving it though! On winding roads, it’s like … it’s like - I guess it’s like you’re in a dream. And the dream responds to your every touch. Best car I’ve ever driven by far. Sure. Although the original meaning of SL has kind of been lost (super light) ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/48 "2014-05-18T14:41:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Most Celicas were not perfomance models. Mine is fuel injected, has performance bearings in the engines and on the wheels. There is some electronic ignition control, though not what would be considered electronic ignition now, it still has points, just a better spark. Your car has fuel injection but still has breaker points? Are you sure about that? I know Toyota kept points a lot longer than some of the other manufacturers, but I would assume if you got the fancy EFI engine you’d get electronic ignition too. What’ve you got, incidentally? A '79-82 Supra? If so, is it for sale? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/49 "2014-05-18T15:01:10Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Your car has fuel injection but still has breaker points? Are you sure about that? I know Toyota kept points a lot longer than some of the other manufacturers, but I would assume if you got the fancy EFI engine you’d get electronic ignition too. What’ve you got, incidentally? A '79-82 Supra? If so, is it for sale? Yes, a distributor and points. It’s an 85 Celica, it’s not for sale. I don’t know when they added a real electronic ignition, it claims to have ‘electronic wonder gizmo’ ignition or something like that, but all I’ve found out is that it produces a little better spark out of the coil. What amazes me is that the injectors are still working great, I had to replace just about every other engine accessory over the years. I had an 85 Supra that was on it’s last legs that I bought just get the seats that matched my car, and a spare set of wheels. I also got an 87(?) Supra for nothing that would have been a fantastic ride, but three people gave up trying to get it running again after an engine replacement. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/50 "2014-05-18T15:36:10Z")
An '85 shouldn’t have come with points. Assuming you’re in North America, the non-Supras came with the same 22R engine that was in about a kajillion Toyota trucks. I think the distributor and cap were similar to the point-style ones in the old 20R engines, but it should have a fully transistorized pickup where the points would have gone. The computer also could control the timing a bit, although usually not enough to compensate for how far off the timing was due to the timing chain always being somewhere in the process of stretching or breaking. Fortunately you could change the chain (and fish out all the broken plastic guides) every time you had to do the head gaskets! Good engines otherwise-- I think changing timing chains and head gaskets on 22R engines looms so large in my memory because they would run well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of miles so a repair that would normally be once in a lifetime for a truck came up multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/51 "2014-05-18T16:34:56Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > An '85 shouldn’t have come with points. Assuming you’re in North America, the non-Supras came with the same 22R engine that was in about a kajillion Toyota trucks. I think the distributor and cap were similar to the point-style ones in the old 20R engines, but it should have a fully transistorized pickup where the points would have gone. The computer also could control the timing a bit, although usually not enough to compensate for how far off the timing was due to the timing chain always being somewhere in the process of stretching or breaking. Fortunately you could change the chain (and fish out all the broken plastic guides) every time you had to do the head gaskets! Good engines otherwise-- I think changing timing chains and head gaskets on 22R engines looms so large in my memory because they would run well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of miles so a repair that would normally be once in a lifetime for a truck came up multiple times. We may be only talking about terminology here. I haven’t looked under the cap for a long time, maybe I’ve forgotten or am now confused with truck I had with a 22R engine also. This one is called a 22RE, I think the E was meant to specify to specify that ignition choice. It’s still under wraps from the winter. When I get it out I’ll go look at the cap and see. Right now I’m waiting to get some ‘have tos’ and ‘want tos’ out of the way and then I’m putting the money into fixing up all the cosmetic and engine issues. I can’t really do any of the work myself anymore so my plan is to get it all done in one shot. Since I have the Mustang ragtop to drive in good weather it doesn’t drive me crazy not having the Celica on the road. Since I’ve got the pros listening, maybe someone can recommend me what to do with engine. I’m sure it needs a head job minimum and new timing chain. I’m considering a complete rebuild, which I recall might run me as much as $2500 from a really good shop. I’m not planning any boring or anything to heat up the engine, just the minimum to put it back in best condition. But other than a valve adjustment or replacements as needed, a new head gasket, and the timing chain, do I really need to go whole hog on a rebuild? It’s only got 165K miles on it, and I doubt I’ll drive it more than 1000 miles year. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/52 "2014-05-18T16:37:25Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > ::: Sigh::: > Do you really want to argue automotive specifications and nomenclature with me? > After 40+ years in the automotive business which includes a stint managing a foreign car parts house and working on a professional racing team I feel fairly confident I know more about the subject than you do. > I’m glad you like your car and I hope you enjoy the hell out of it, but don’t tell people that it has"performance" engine bearings (it doesn’t) or that the wheels have thrust bearings (they don’t). You will only make yourself look not very bright to a real car guy. Just wanted to say I understand where you’re coming from. You’re a professional, I’m not. I wasn’t intending to argue, I just sound that way sometimes. I was only trying to tell you what I had found out over the years, primarily from people who don’t match your qualifications. I appreciate what you’ve told me, it’s useful and helpful information. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/53 "2014-05-18T17:09:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > We may be only talking about terminology here. I haven’t looked under the cap for a long time, maybe I’ve forgotten or am now confused with truck I had with a 22R engine also. This one is called a 22RE, I think the E was meant to specify to specify that ignition choice. The only difference between the 22R and the 22RE is EFI versus a (fiddly emissions-era) carburetor. I’m about 95% sure the ignition systems are identical. That was one of the things that was infuriating about having a carburated 22R-- it had most of the the same expensive computer parts and sensors as the EFI one but still had the lackluster performance and reliability of a carburetor. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Since I’ve got the pros listening, maybe someone can recommend me what to do with engine. I’m sure it needs a head job minimum and new timing chain. I’m considering a complete rebuild, which I recall might run me as much as $2500 from a really good shop. I’m not planning any boring or anything to heat up the engine, just the minimum to put it back in best condition. But other than a valve adjustment or replacements as needed, a new head gasket, and the timing chain, do I really need to go whole hog on a rebuild? It’s only got 165K miles on it, and I doubt I’ll drive it more than 1000 miles year. Ha! I knew it! Like I mentioned, head gaskets and timing chains are practically routine maintenance on these engines. Unless you drove it for a long time overheated or have some other reason to suspect damage to the head and valves, just having a machine shop give the head a quick once over and then throwing a new gasket on should fix 'er right up for the next 150k. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/54 "2014-05-18T17:55:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Are the following ‘sports cars’?: > > BMW M3 sedan > MB C-class AMG > Audi S4/RS4 > Subaru WRX STi > Mitsubishi Evo > VW Golf R Sports coupes. The first two might be GTs. “Sports car” =/= “car with sporty capabilities” any more than “movie star” equates to “person who has spoken into a video camera.” Or even “very famous person who has spoken into a video camera.” Once again, if any smallish, decently-performing car is a “sports car” in your view, power to you. Some of us use finer categories to differentiate the spectrum between Yugos and Koenigseggs. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/55 "2014-05-18T18:58:28Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Ha! I knew it! Like I mentioned, head gaskets and timing chains are practically routine maintenance on these engines. Unless you drove it for a long time overheated or have some other reason to suspect damage to the head and valves, just having a machine shop give the head a quick once over and then throwing a new gasket on should fix 'er right up for the next 150k. That would be practical. I’ll be lucky to live long enough to put another 15k on it much less 150k, I have to start thinking reasonably about stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/56 "2014-05-18T19:29:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Just wanted to say I understand where you’re coming from. You’re a professional, I’m not. I wasn’t intending to argue, I just sound that way sometimes. I was only trying to tell you what I had found out over the years, primarily from people who don’t match your qualifications. I appreciate what you’ve told me, it’s useful and helpful information. Don’t feel bad. Nobody following along thought you were even arguing with the guy. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/57 "2014-05-18T22:00:09Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Sports coupes. The first two might be GTs. They’re all sedans. Some with a hatch. 😉 > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > “Sports car” =/= “car with sporty capabilities” any more than “movie star” equates to “person who has spoken into a video camera.” Or even “very famous person who has spoken into a video camera.” > > Once again, if any smallish, decently-performing car is a “sports car” in your view, power to you. Some of us use finer categories to differentiate the spectrum between Yugos and Koenigseggs. To me, a sports car is the top 1% on the road as far as overall performance (acceleration, braking, handling, etc.) . Be it a coupe, a sedan, or a convertible. As I read this thread, I’m noticing a particular bias towards convertible two door models. Some insist on manual transmissions. I’m wondering why some are clinging hopelessly to James Dean era cars. Don’t get me wrong, many have earned the the title “sports car”, but there is a newer breed of cars far more capable than those old beauties that gets dismissed because… well… I’m not exactly sure why. So I’m asking… true exotic supercars aside, are the cars on my list not sports cars? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/58 "2014-05-18T22:21:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Are the following ‘sports cars’?: > > BMW M3 sedan > MB C-class AMG > Audi S4/RS4 > Subaru WRX STi > Mitsubishi Evo > VW Golf R BMW M3 sedan, MB C-class AMG, Audi S4/RS4 = “Touring car” Subaru WRX STi, Mitsubishi Evo = “Rice Rocket” (performance car). VW Golf R = “Sporty” I wouldn’t call any of them traditional sports cars. I don’t think you can have a 4-door sports car (or a hatchback, for that matter). The definition given previously - 2 door, room for a picnic basket, great handling, straight-line performance not the priority, is a good one. A manual is preferred, but not required. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/59 "2014-05-18T23:30:05Z")
Maybe we should back up a bit in defining “sports car”. How about this. A “sports car” is a car designed for little utility purpose other than just driving it. It doesn’t matter what kind of transmission, rag top, hp or number of doors (usually 0 or 2, more than that is too much utility). By that definition you almost always end up with a lightweight, nimble, maybe overpowered car that rides close to the ground, won’t carry more than 2 people comfortably, isn’t usually very good for long trips and is just fun to drive and good for little else. A vehicle with a lot of utility beyond that is not a sports car no matter how many HP, how modified the suspension, the type of transmission, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/60 "2014-05-18T23:59:04Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Mercedes 190SL, … 230-280SL Feh. Boulevardiers the lot of them. Doesn’t make me want one any less. Just not sports cars. Fine GTs. Comfortable. Long legs, especially the 280s. Tried out a big Healy ('65 3000) once. Made my left knee hurt before I even drove it. Would have to drive from Seattle to Chicago and realized I’d be crippled before I got out of Washington State and would lose the leg by South Dakota. THAT was a sports car! ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609/61 "2014-05-19T00:13:35Z")
How about: a sports car is one that makes people smile and wave when you drive by in it. I got a dozen smiles and waves today, and probably sent 50 people home with some variation of “Hey, guess what I saw today?” As did the guy in the '61 Vette I passed. But probably not too many of the Celicas of any year, BMWs, VWs, WRXs or R-this-or-thats. Fine cars, all of them. But only other fanciers even notice them. EVERYONE notices a sports car. So maybe it _is_ like porn, or sf. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-camaro-w-auto-trans-a-sports-car/688609.md?page=4)