# Does a round earth conflict with biblical texts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 19, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171 "2007-08-19T21:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hobohob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Hobohob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobohob)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/1 "2007-08-19T21:46:05Z")
I know the central sun was a problem for Galileo, but what about the shape of the earth? And if the earth is flat, what about the backside (the western hemisphere)? Can fundamentalists live there? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/2 "2007-08-19T22:12:24Z")
I assume you mean “spherical”, as opposed to round. Something can be both flat and round at the same time. And I’m sure someone will nitpick that shortly to note that the earth isn’t quite spherical either… ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/3 "2007-08-19T22:22:25Z")
Here is it straight from the prophet’s mouth: [QUOTE=Isaiah 40:22 NIV] He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/4 "2007-08-19T22:34:27Z")
I can’t remember the location but it seem to recall one where a human (Jesus?) is taken to the highest mountian were he can behold “the four corners of the world.” A little help someone? ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/5 "2007-08-19T22:50:53Z")
[QUOTE=Nic2004] I can’t remember the location but it seem to recall one where a human (Jesus?) is taken to the highest mountian were he can behold “the four corners of the world.” A little help someone? [/QUOTE] Og, I hate it when an atheist has to answer these questions, but the quote said Kingdoms, not corners. Matthew 4:8-10 > [@](#): > > 8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” > > 10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[d]” SSG Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/6 "2007-08-19T23:20:09Z")
I remember that Isaac Asimov, in _Asimov’s Guide to the Bible_, included a section that referred to the several places in which it is implied, as in the Isaiah quote, that the heavens are spread out like a tent, implying that the earth is flat. His argument was indeed that this was a contradiction to the modern view. Unfortunately, it’s not in the Isaiah chapter and his index mainly covers names, not concepts. Perhaps if more people post apposite quotes I can find the right chapter. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/7 "2007-08-19T23:20:38Z")
[QUOTE=SSG Schwartz] Og, I hate it when an atheist has to answer these questions, but the quote said Kingdoms, not corners. Matthew 4:8-10 SSG Schwartz [/QUOTE] Sorry. I too am an atheist and couldn’t remember it exactly enough for this place. It suggests a Flat-Earth mindset as a high place would not be able to see all the kingdoms on a sphere. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/8 "2007-08-19T23:27:30Z")
[QUOTE=Nic2004] Sorry. I too am an atheist and couldn’t remember it exactly enough for this place. It suggests a Flat-Earth mindset as a high place would not be able to see all the kingdoms on a sphere. Thanks [/QUOTE] The Jews who wrote the New Testament were literate members of the Greco-Roman culture. They were aware that the world was a sphere. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/9 "2007-08-20T03:20:36Z")
But the Old Testament was not written by “literate members of the Greco-Roman culture.” And most of the anti-scientific notions that literal believers insist upon come from the Old Testament, but remained within mainstream Catholic thinking for centuries and within christain sects for much longer. The notion that the earth is flat and not spherical was adhered to by many until its untruth finally became too obvious. > **[Modern flat Earth beliefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society)** > > Anti-scientific beliefs in a flat Earth are promoted by a number of organizations and individuals. The claims of modern flat Earth proponents are not based on scientific knowledge and are contrary to over two millennia of scientific consensus based on multiple confirming lines of evidence that Earth is roughly spherical. Flat Earth beliefs are classified by experts in philosophy and physics as a form of science denial. Flat Earth groups of the modern era date from the middle of the 20th centur... > [@](#): > > The modern flat earth movement originated with an eccentric English inventor, Samuel Rowbotham (1816-1884). Based on his literal interpretation of certain biblical passages, Rowbotham published a 16-page pamphlet, which he later expanded into a 430 page book Earth Not a Globe expounding his views. According to Rowbotham’s system, which he called “Zetetic Astronomy”, the earth is a flat disk centered at the North Pole and bounded along its southern edge by a wall of ice, with the sun and moon 3000 miles and the “cosmos” 3100 miles above earth. And earlier: > **[Flat Earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth)** > > Flat Earth is an archaic and scientifically disproven conception of the Earth's shape as a plane or disk. Many ancient societies subscribed to a flat-Earth cosmography. The model has undergone a recent resurgence as a conspiracy theory in the 21st century. The idea of a spherical Earth appeared in ancient Greek philosophy with Pythagoras (6th century BC). However, the early Greek cosmological view of a flat Earth persisted among most pre-Socratics (6th–5th century BC). In the early 4th century... > [@](#): > > In his Homilies Concerning the Statutes[20] St.John Chrysostom (344–408) explicitly espoused the idea, based on his reading of Scripture, that the Earth floated on the waters gathered below the firmament, and St. Athanasius (c.293–373) expressed similar views in Against the Heathen.[21] Diodorus of Tarsus (d. 394) also argued for a flat Earth based on scriptures; however, Diodorus’ opinion on the matter is known to us only by a criticism of it by Photius.[22] Severian, Bishop of Gabala (d. 408), wrote: “The earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall”.[23] The Egyptian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes (547) in his Topographia Christiana, where the Covenant Ark was meant to represent the whole universe, argued on theological grounds that the Earth was flat, a parallelogram enclosed by four oceans. That page also addresses some Catholic interpretations of the implications of the OP’s question, “Can fundamentalists live there?” St. Augustine argued no. > [@](#): > > In Book III of The Divine Institutes[19] he ridicules the notion that there could be inhabitants of the antipodes “whose footsteps are higher than their heads”. The topic certainly relates to modern fundamentalist, or at least literalist, claims about Biblical authority on other issues pertaining to science. If this long-held belief could be toppled by overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary, why not other beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/10 "2007-08-20T03:27:46Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Here is it straight from the prophet’s mouth: [/QUOTE] The Earth is a sphere, not a circle. An area or realm surrounding a centralized perspective can be portrayed as a circle, even in a flat-earth model. You can erect a canopy or tent above a circle, but not a sphere, where there is no up. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/11 "2007-08-20T03:43:49Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] And most of the anti-scientific notions that literal believers insist upon come from the Old Testament, but remained within mainstream Catholic thinking for centuries and within christain sects for much longer. The notion that the earth is flat and not spherical was adhered to by many until its untruth finally became too obvious. [/QUOTE] It appears that all the Catholic and Christian philosophers mentioned in that article came to their conclusion based on interpretations of the bible and their own theological and philiosophical ideas though, not because any verse of the Old Testament explicitly says that the Earth is flat. Looking at the bible verses mentioned in that wiki, none come anywhere close to saying or even implying the Earth is flat. So I’d say that the answer to the threads title is: no. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/12 "2007-08-20T04:12:15Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] It appears that all the Catholic and Christian philosophers mentioned in that article came to their conclusion based on interpretations of the bible and their own theological and philiosophical ideas though, not because any verse of the Old Testament explicitly says that the Earth is flat. Looking at the bible verses mentioned in that wiki, none come anywhere close to saying or even implying the Earth is flat. So I’d say that the answer to the threads title is: no. [/QUOTE] I hate to break it to you, but every belief of every Christian denomination is based on interpretations of what the Bible says, rather than explicit statements. That includes major tenets like heaven, Satan, the afterlife, morality, and behavior. Why should the image of the earth be any different? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/13 "2007-08-20T04:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] I hate to break it to you, but every belief of every Christian denomination is based on interpretations of what the Bible says, rather than explicit statements. That includes major tenets like heaven, Satan, the afterlife, morality, and behavior. Why should the image of the earth be any different? [/QUOTE] Umm…ok, but the title of the thread was “Does a round earth conflict with biblical texts?”, not does it conflict with the interpretation given those texts by a small minority of Roman era theologians. I’d say the answer then is: no. This as opposed to the case of the Earth going around the Sun, which the bible does explicitly contradict, both by saying that the Earth cannot move, and that the sun moves around the Earth. Also as an aside, even amongst Roman era Christians, note that the wiki article that you quoted states that the view of the Earth being flat was held by a “small minority”. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/14 "2007-08-20T13:15:47Z")
There is no contradiction between the Bible and the fact of a spherical earth. References to “the four corners of the earth” or “spreading out the sky like a tent” and the like are poetic idioms with no intent to be construed as a factual statement of geomorphology. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/15 "2007-08-20T13:43:21Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] There is no contradiction between the Bible and the fact of a spherical earth. References to “the four corners of the earth” or “spreading out the sky like a tent” and the like are poetic idioms with no intent to be construed as a factual statement of geomorphology. [/QUOTE] Shrug. You may say that but literalists do not. No two people share the same interpretation of every verse of the Bible. Nor do the interpretations hold constant over time. Today’s minority may be tomorrow’s majority. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/16 "2007-08-20T14:32:40Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Shrug. You may say that but literalists do not. No two people share the same interpretation of every verse of the Bible. Nor do the interpretations hold constant over time. Today’s minority may be tomorrow’s majority. [/QUOTE] Yea ,but the tent quote in Isaiah is explicitly a simile. “He stretches out the heavens \*\*like \*\*a canopy, and spreads them out \*\*like \*\*a tent to live in.” So even a biblical literalist is saved from having to believe that the heavens are literally a cloth tent. So far as I can tell, there isn’t any quote in the bible that would indicate a flat Earth, even to a strict literalist. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/17 "2007-08-20T14:37:56Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] So far as I can tell, there isn’t any quote in the bible that would indicate a flat Earth, even to a strict literalist. [/QUOTE] Is is possible to even construct such a quote? - as far as I can tell, even the strictest of literalists will find a way to weasel around quotes that flatly and obviously contradict readily-observable reality. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/18 "2007-08-20T15:07:28Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] So far as I can tell, there isn’t any quote in the bible that would indicate a flat Earth, even to a strict literalist. [/QUOTE] You try telling that to the guy who started the Flat Earth Society. Seriously, this notion has hundreds of years of history and thousands of adherents plus the backing of leading theologians of their era and you’re saying that your interpretation of the Bible says that it’s impossible? Belief doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/19 "2007-08-20T15:20:30Z")
Exapno Mapcase: > [@](#): > > Shrug. You may say that but literalists do not. I AM a literalist. However, there is no place in the text that makes a declarative statement that, for example, “the world has four corners.” Such phrases are either used in books like Psalms, which even the most literal-minded must admit is meant as poetry and not descriptive reality, or in the mouths of human speakers, where idiom can be easily construed (or at worst, ignorance on the part of the speaker, not necessarily the understanding of the Bible’s writer). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171/20 "2007-08-20T17:36:55Z")
In The Atlas of Middle-Earth, the shape of Arda as being both “Globed within the Void” and flat as per the Ainulindale are solved by having the top be a flat circle, but the bottom be hemispherical. So perhaps this is the solution to competing quotes 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-round-earth-conflict-with-biblical-texts/416171.md?page=2)