# Does a sovereign country have the right to require a passport? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017 "2004-01-06T15:35:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/21 "2004-01-07T19:18:37Z")
emac, I don’t recall that tourists were targetted in Morocco. As far I’m informed it was an internal matter and rather quickly solved. As for Bali : similar things can happen everywhere, also in the USA done by US terrorists who want to express disagreement with the government. Or do you claim there are no lunatics wandering around overthere, armed to the theeth and having all the needed explosives ready to use? If you want to be completely safe, lock yourself up in your home. And make that a nuclear-proof safehouse at that. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/22 "2004-01-07T19:33:09Z")
bump The USA is not the only nation facing illegal immigration on a large scale causing the related problems. It is also not the only nation with a mixed population coming from all over the globe. And it certainly is not at all the only nation that has to deal with international terrorism. In fact: it is one of the nations that has not that much experience with it at all. The fact that the attacs on 9/11 were that spectacular and made so many victims doesn’t make up for that, I’m afraid. (And what disturbes very much me is that US’ers tend to act as if the WTC was by some miracle only visited by US’ers that very day) It is because the US has no history of terrorist attacks, that people were that shocked by what happened and still are. Which explains every single over-reaction by the USA and explains also why others perceive them as over-reactions. And if the US would have announced their last invention as a mesure to beat illegal immigration, that would have been a far better policy in terms of PR then what they are doing now. But they would never do that since they want to keep their own population in fear and make it appear as if the government does such a good job in protecting them. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/23 "2004-01-07T19:40:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*emac, > > 1. I mean valuable information gathered by secret services world wide on all sort of criminals. And that includes information on possible or potential terrorists. If you think such information flows unlimited from one nation to an other then I think you must review those idea’s. > Can you tell me how on earth a picture and a fingerprint can add to detect entering criminals on airports/border controls if they aren’t known as such by the receiving country. And can’t be known as such.\*\* Quid pro quo, check again on that Visa Excemption page. The US is more than happy to share information when information is shared with it, that is a requirement for visa excepmtion. Secondly, the finger printing has TWO justifications: 1.) To ascribe biometric information to the person’s ID, like a signature, that is harder to forge. Forgery is one of the main reasons for this. 2.) The finger print is compared to finger prints of millions of convicted and suspected criminals that the FBI, CIA, and INTERPOL have on record. If you don’t buy into that, then why check a person’s name at all? The system is, and has, cought a lot of people, and DETERED a lot of people. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **2. Why shouldn’t I call the CIA a terrorist organisation? Because their terrorism is planned and financed in the USA and excercised elswhere? Isn’t that what many terrorist organisations do? Why would I call them terrorists and exclude the CIA ?** Because I asked you not to. And because you don’t call all countries terrorist organizations. The KGB has a long history that paralled the CIA, as does Britain’s, and France, and Germany…Is your country free and clean? Are you in Iceland? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **3. May I ask you if it is one of your hobbies to declare everyone from whom you don’t know the nationality to be a citizen of a nation that supports and/or finances terrorism? > If yes: Why?** As mentioned above. Under your definition nearly all countries finance and support terrorism in one form or another. Nearly all countries have had a terrorist grow up there. And just to be clear, I never actually said that your country did. I ASKED if your country did. Please read more carefully before acusing me. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **4. Identity card: a document distributed by the State… > [/snip]In fact: A card that at first sight looks like the one presented under your link.** No, neither the US nor Canada has one of those, they would be a violation of civil liberties, and the right to privacy. In the US and Canada, citizens are free to move as they wish within their borders. Foreign citizens, on the other hand, do not have the luxury and are required to have said documents. Canada implemented our system in order to deal with the ease of forging passports. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*5. In my opinion every passport or identity card can be falsified rather easily. Just like every banknote can be falsified. > \*\* Right, and as technology improves, the good guys try to stay one step ahead of the bad guys. So new banknotes are printed with new security features. Just as new passports are created with new features. Now, having a finger print on record makes is just a bit harder. We’re already seeing banks do the same thing (more with retinas though). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*6. Your picturing of the crimes committed by the USA seems to be a bit overshadowed by your obvious admiration of their actions. \*\* I assure you I admire no country. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*I know that many nations are more or less guilty of participating in that race or did so in the past, yet in my opinion nobody can beat the USA to it in this period of human history. > \*\* Now THAT is laughable. Which period of human history are you refering too? In the last year? Decade? Century? I’m struggling not to Goodwinize myself but I just want to screem Nazi. Or Rewanda? Kosovo? Name a country that ISN’T in that race? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/24 "2004-01-07T21:06:28Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* \*\*bump The USA is not the only nation facing illegal immigration on a large scale causing the related problems. It is also not the only nation with a mixed population coming from all over the globe. \*\* No, we’re not. We’re just the one with the most illegal immigration and one of the most mixed populations. \*\* And it certainly is not at all the only nation that has to deal with international terrorism. In fact: it is one of the nations that has not that much experience with it at all. The fact that the attacs on 9/11 were that spectacular and made so many victims doesn’t make up for that, I’m afraid. (And what disturbes very much me is that US’ers tend to act as if the WTC was by some miracle only visited by US’ers that very day) \*\* Didn’t say it was- I just said that part of the reason that the visa process is so convoluted is a matter of illegal immigration, not terrorism. And as for the number of Americans vs. other nationalities, yes there were many people from other countries there- they made a BIG deal out of it in the news media afterward. Going on 3 years later, it tends to fade in people’s minds, especially considering that the majority of people there were from the US. \*\* And if the US would have announced their last invention as a mesure to beat illegal immigration, that would have been a far better policy in terms of PR then what they are doing now. But they would never do that since they want to keep their own population in fear and make it appear as if the government does such a good job in protecting them. \*\* Oh come on. What interest would the US Government have for trying to keep people fearful? The biggest political coup would be for them to have people feel safe again and trumpet that fact high and low, not to keep people fearful and go on about protection. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/25 "2004-01-07T21:30:45Z")
You guys are debating Aldeberan on a matter of U.S. policy? I’d jump in, but I’m too busy pushing this boulder up a hill. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/26 "2004-01-08T01:37:49Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by bump \* \*\*we do not have a relatively homogenous society like say… the UK. In other words, if I was to go to the UK and illegally work, being an American, I would stand out from the vast run of English/Scots/Welsh/N. Irish by virtue of speech. Not so in the US- in major cities, a person of ANY nationality won’t stand out- there are so many Arabs, Hispanics, Africans, etc… that one illegal immigrant won’t stand out at all. \*\* Err…Do you have a clue about what the population of London looks like?? 😕 Do you actually believe that an Arab, African, etc… will stand out in a major british city? I would suspect there’s some misconception about the “homogenous” british society, here… ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/27 "2004-01-08T04:14:04Z")
I didn’t mean London in particular- more like the rest of the country, where the vast majority of the people are relatively homogenous. Obviously the populations of say, London, Paris, Washington, NY, etc… aren’t representative of the rest of their countries. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/28 "2004-01-08T04:22:59Z")
It’s a side issue, but any urban area in Britain will be similarly diverse. You’d need to move to a pretty small rural environment before you’d attract any attention as an Arab or an African or a West Indian or an Indian or . . . ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/29 "2004-01-08T05:13:58Z")
**Aldebaran** You have failed to answer many of **emacknight’s** questions. Just to pick one, “Does your country allow citizens from Israel”? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/30 "2004-01-08T05:37:09Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Paul in Saudi \* **I was photographed, fingerprinted and darn near tatooed to get into Saudi. I drew the line at anal probing however.** Go ahead, make the Saudis smile for the camera. * * * Don’t get me started on what we had to do to get into KSA for the first time. However, with a valid residence VISA for one of he Gulf States we can travel with ease between the other Gulf countries. As far as Israel goes…if one happened to travel to Israel then it better not be in you passport when coming in to KSA. They put those VISA’s on a separate sheet. ( I had a Macau stamp on my old passport and it looked like the Star of David, immigration in Saudi would always stop on that page:rolleyes: ) ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/31 "2004-01-08T05:43:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\ ***Aldebaran** You have failed to answer many of **emacknight’s** questions. Just to pick one, “Does your country allow citizens from Israel”? If not, why not? \*\* Not just citizens from Israel but ANYONE with an Israeli stamp in their passport or from a region near an Israeli boarder. When you get the chance of course. Or even more generally, is it right for a country to refuse entry to someone who simply visited some other country first? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/32 "2004-01-08T07:21:47Z")
Just to further drive the point home, here is a quote from the url=http://www.voyage.gc.ca/dest/report-en.asp?country=283000] Depaterment of Foreign Affairs about Canadians visiting Syria: > [@](#): > > Canadians attempting to visit Syria have been denied entry for the following reasons: a) their passports did not contain a valid Syrian visa (visas cannot be obtained at the border); or b) their passports bear an Israeli visa, an Israeli border stamp, or an Egyptian and/or Jordanian border stamp issued by an office bordering Israel (such a stamp would indicate the traveller entered from Israel). And one for visiting [Lebanon](http://www.voyage.gc.ca/dest/report-en.asp?country=159000): > [@](#): > > Canadians have been denied entry into Lebanon because their passports bear: (a) an Israeli visa; (b) an Israeli border stamp; or © an Egyptian or Jordanian border stamp issued by an office bordering Israel (such a stamp would indicate the traveller has been to Israel). Visitors with Israeli stamps in their passports will be refused entry into Lebanon. It should be noted that this does not refer to Israeli citizens, but Canadian citizens that have visited Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/33 "2004-01-08T08:17:25Z")
My impression is that US is not in the lead when it comes to illegal immigration, and the comments about other “more homogenous” countries are odd, especially when claiming UK is one of them. I’ve been to the UK several times and saw a plethora of different ethnicities. Black, arab and Indian. In London, at least half the people I spoke to were not caucasian or English. I’m sure that Sweden is considered one of them and I think more then 10% of the people here were born elsewhere or have parents that were. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/34 "2004-01-08T11:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > \*\* It should be noted that this does not refer to Israeli citizens, but Canadian citizens that have visited Israel. \*\* ``` US immigration does make it a tad harder on people with arabic countries stamps on their passports... some brazilian soccer players and coaches played for arabic oil rich countries and have been questioned and delayed way more than necessary. Including the former coach that led Brazil to a World Cup victory. They don't block 'em out... still having the wrong stamps on your passport seems to be bad everywhere now. ``` ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/35 "2004-01-09T01:42:40Z")
So far, **RM** has complained about fingerprinting, and the delay of Brazilian soccer players, at US borders. Surprisingly, (or not), neither he, nor **Aldebaran** , have any comment about the racial and religious bigotry of some countries that deny entry to people who have merely visited Israel at some point. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/36 "2004-01-09T02:13:36Z")
Well Milroyj if you want to compare the US with arabic countries and feel its a equal comparison… knock yourself out. Besides the death penalty and some religious extremism that the US and the arabs have in similar… I thought the US otherwise should be held to higher western standards. You did see my last sentence too ? “… still having the wrong stamps on your passport seems to be everywhere now.” ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/37 "2004-01-09T02:43:50Z")
Why should the US be held to higher standards? Why would you presume that “western” standards are somehow “higher” in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/38 "2004-01-09T02:56:57Z")
Well most western nations wouldn’t accept race or sexual preference as a reason to bar someone for example ? If you think the US shouldn’t be held to higher standards than arab countries please do defend your position. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/39 "2004-01-09T03:06:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\*If you think the US shouldn’t be held to higher standards than arab countries please do defend your position. \*\* That’s not how it works. You made the following claim: > [@](#): > > I thought the US otherwise should be held to higher western standards. YOU need to defend the position that YOU put forth. So, once again, why should the US be held to higher standards, and why do you presume that western standards are higher? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017/40 "2004-01-09T04:26:54Z")
Not exactly… you guys were comparing how the US treats suspicious passports stamps and travellers to how Arabs treat Israeli stamps. You were in a sense saying its the same. ``` Reasons for higher standards: The US was the main country behind the UN declaration of Human Rights, which is quite western in its outview. The US is a democracy as are most western countries. Racism and discrimination are illegal in western countries. Plus the normal US moral highground. I am not going to go on about "WE" are civilized and "THEY" are barbaric... but you can't compare what the US does with what Israel and Arabs do to one another. Now if you want you can say the US need not have any standards at all.... ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-sovereign-country-have-the-right-to-require-a-passport/223017.md?page=3)