# Does a suicide victim's will have any legal power? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 23, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796 "2001-08-23T22:08:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/1 "2001-08-23T22:08:37Z")
Most last will and testaments, as I understand it, are assumed to be written while the person is in good mental health, and are to be followed if the person who wrote the will died under normal circumstances or natural causes. However, a suicide is arguably not something that’s done by somebody who’s wholly sane (I figure one would assume depression at the very least), and isn’t exactly a natural death. So, in the event of a suicide, is the court (or whomever executes the will) obligated to follow the will without question, or would there be some kind of investigation first? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/2 "2001-08-23T22:16:36Z")
IANAL, but I don’t see how the manner of death would effect whether a will is adhered to or not. Either a will is legitimate or it’s not… I don’t see why it would matter how it was placed into effect. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/3 "2001-08-23T22:29:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dolphinboy \* > \*\*IANAL, but I don’t see how the manner of death would effect whether a will is adhered to or not. Either a will is legitimate or it’s not… I don’t see why it would matter how it was placed into effect. \*\* Maybe the OP is asking if a will written by a suicide victim is “legitimate” then? I would guess somebody could raise some doubts if the will were written, for instance, two hours before the death. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/4 "2001-08-23T22:33:16Z")
Well, I had a friend that committed suicide and left a will on a piece of notebook paper, clearly written hours before her death. All her wishes were honored, but that may have been b/c her parents decided to do so, not b/c there was any legal basis for doing so. (I never asked them). ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/5 "2001-08-23T22:34:24Z")
Every jurisdiction in the U.S. requires that a testator (person making a will) be of sound mind _at the time the will is made_, or the will won’t be valid. This makes sense, when you think about it; you can’t legally give all your stuff away if you’re out of your mind when you try to do it. But the law does not concern itself with the state of mind of the testator at the time he or she dies, nor does it care how he or she died. Your stuff is your stuff, and you have every right to give it away as you see fit, regardless of whether or not you intend to kill yourself (or do kill yourself). (Subject, that is, to statutory provisions such as spousal share.) Lots of people are _non compos mentis_ when they die, though I’d assume the vast majority of such people are very elderly people who’ve sort of slid into the twilight, mentally speaking. Their wills are still valid, so long as they were “of sound mind” when the will was drawn up (and so long as all the other requirements for making a valid will are met). ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/6 "2001-08-23T22:37:26Z")
From a faintly remembered course on legal philosophy, it is not a requirement (unless perhaps a stipulation in the will itself) that one has to die a ‘natural’ death. I think over 100 years ago the case of someone who killed their relatives in order to inherit a large amount of money was brought up, and the decision generated the legal principle that “no one should profit by a crime”. Thus someone who kills their grandfather to get the inheritance can legally be deprived of what would otherwise be theirs. In the case of suicide, I don’t know, however. It depends on whether ‘profiting from a crime’ can be extended to bringing others a profit. In this case, the profit to the criminal can only have been spiritual in nature (i.e. I kill myself in order to know that my wife & kids will have money now, rather than later). I don’t think it could be argued from that point of view at least. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/7 "2001-08-23T22:38:05Z")
For a will to be legitimate it must be witnessed (co signed by someone else) so I doubt someone would change their will, have it witnessed, and then kill themselves. And why would it matter if they did? I don’t think suicide proves that someone isn’t of “sound mind and body”… they may have some terminal disease and killing themselves is the only reasonable and logical thing to do. Although relatives might be pissed that at the last minute before killing themselves they decided to give all of their money to the cat… I’m not sure who would investigate it. ---
**Author:** ![kata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@kata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kata)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/8 "2001-08-23T22:42:25Z")
The bastard lawyer coerced the elderly lady who lived across the street from my work into signing over all her possessions to him, including a piece of property worth well over three million dollars. She had no other siblings or other relatives to speak of. So when is a person officially considered _non compus mentis_? When they can no longer hold a pen in their hand and scribble out a signature? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/9 "2001-08-23T23:01:41Z")
panamajack > [@](#): > > I think over 100 years ago the case of someone who killed their relatives in order to inherit a large amount of money was brought up, and the decision generated the legal principle that “no one should profit by a crime”. Thus someone who kills their grandfather to get the inheritance can legally be deprived of what would otherwise be theirs. IANAL, but in Wisconsin at any rate a law barring murderers from inheriting under the will of their victim had to be enacted. There was a high profile case here several years ago in which a man convicted of murdering his parents inherited their estates under the terms of their wills. He’s serving two life sentences but he’s a very wealthy inmate. Public outrage inspired the Legislature to add a disinheriting provision to the statutes. dolphinboy > [@](#): > > For a will to be legitimate it must be witnessed (co signed by someone else) In Wisconsin (and other jurisdictions) there is something called a “separate writing for transferring personal property at death,” which is different from a will. Wisconsin legally recognized such documents mainly because so many people in the state already thought they were legal. In Wisconsin a separate writing has to be signed but it doesn’t have to be witnessed. kata > [@](#): > > The bastard lawyer coerced the elderly lady who lived across the street from my work into signing over all her possessions to him, including a piece of property worth well over three million dollars. She had no other siblings or other relatives to speak of. This sounds like a case of undue influence, which can invalidate the will. Depending on the statutes of the particular state, there may or may not be legal standing among the more distant relatives to challenge the will. The state may also be able to challenge the will, or at the very least the lawyer might be in line for a disbarment action. > [@](#): > > So when is a person officially considered non compus mentis? When they can no longer hold a pen in their hand and scribble out a signature? Depends on the laws of the state. Again in Wisconsin, a testator unable to hold a pen (for whatever reason) may designate someone to sign the will on his or her behalf or allow someone to assist him or her in steadying the pen. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/10 "2001-08-23T23:56:42Z")
PANAMAJACK, it still remains the law in every jurisdiction taht I am aware of that a murderer may not profit from his crime. If the murderer is an heir to the victim, that the law treats the murderer as if he or she had predeceased the victim (died before him/her) and apportions the estate according. You cannot profit from your own crime if you kill yourself – where is the profit to you? Nor can you give some “profit” to someone else; after all, a will merely allows you to dispose of your own possessions – that which is _already_ yours – as you see fit. So why wouldn’t you just give everything away to the people you want to have it? Why bother to kill yourself? I think perhaps you are thinking more of the situation where a person would consider killing him/herself so that their family can get the proceeds of a life insurance policy. But that is a different issue altogether, and virtually every life insurance policy contains a clause stating that it does not cover suicide. DOLPHINBOY, it is not true in every case that a will must be witnessed to be valid. The rules regarding wills are very specific and vary widely from jurisidiction to jurisdiction. In some states, a will that is not correctly witnesses will still be admitted to probate if is clear the testator intended to will to be operative; in other states, it absolutely will not be, no matter how clear the testator’s intent is. You are correct, however, that the general rule is that a will must be witnessed by two witnesses who are not heirs and who see the testator either sign the will or acknowledge his/her signature. And, again, it is really irrelevant if the person is “of sound mind and body” at the time of death; they may be crazy as a bedbug. The question is whether they were competent _at the time the will was made_. KATA, it sounds like a case of undue influence to me, as OTTO said. It is also almost certainly a violation of the lawyers ethical duty to his client (which prohibits the taking of large gifts) and possibly is a violation of law, since many jurisdictions do not allow an attorney drawing up a will to inherit anything except a “mere token” under it. A person is _non compos mentis_ (which is actually a term that isn’t much used anymore) when they are incompetent. Incompetent people cannot make wills. Incompetency of a living person is established through a competency hearing; incompetency of a dead person (as when a will is challenged) is established through evidence of just how not-competent they were (or weren’t). This is something different than undue influence; a competent person may still be the victim of undue influence, which is a separate ground for invalidating a will. It also has nothing to do with _physical_ ability. A person who cannot literally sign a will may have a proxy sign it for him or her – so long as they meet the requirements for making a valid will (such as competency). ---
**Author:** ![xanakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/7bcc69/32.png) [@xanakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanakis)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/11 "2001-08-24T00:47:16Z")
Jodi: “You cannot profit from your own crime if you kill yourself – where is the profit to you? Nor can you give some “profit” to someone else; after all, a will merely allows you to dispose of your own possessions – that which is already yours – as you see fit. So why wouldn’t you just give everything away to the people you want to have it? Why bother to kill yourself?” What about this scenario: A person is of sound mind at the time they make the Will but later become insane and at that time decide they wish to commit suicide in order to provide financial benefit to their beneficiaries. This person would still be making a profit albeit not a financial one. A profit is a “gain”, an “advantage” (according to Websters) - this doesnt necessarily have to entail financial profit. The person is “gaining” by getting what they want through committing a crime, that of suicide. And others are financially benefitting from this crime. Legally does a profit have to be a financial one? What if I decide to kill somebody because I dont like them not because I want their money. I have profited by wiping out their sorry ass (sorry, I didnt like them anyway). I have profited because I dont get to see them anymore. And I will be sent to prison for murder because of my illegal profit, which wasnt a financial profit. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/12 "2001-08-24T02:32:09Z")
The person was sane at the time s/he executed the will, right **xanakis**? That’s the only relevant question. The testator’s reasons for swallowing that case of aspirin do not matter when it comes to the validity of the will. And just because the discussion so far has touched upon just how sane you have to be to execute a valid will, the general rule is that the testator has to know (a) what his property is and (b) the natural objects of his bounty (i.e., his relatives). You got that, you probably got capacity to execute a will. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/13 "2001-08-24T02:55:58Z")
Thanks for all the thoughtful answers guys and gals. I guess I’ve been watching too many movies that made wills seem, in general, more fragile and contestable than they really are. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-suicide-victims-will-have-any-legal-power/77796/14 "2001-08-24T03:06:09Z")
It’s easy to contest a will. It’s hard to invalidate one. Just ask Anna Nicole Smith.