# Does a woman contemplating abortion owe any notice to the father of the baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900 "2005-11-01T14:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/41 "2005-11-01T21:44:22Z")
A man has extra marital affairs. Nope, his body doesn’t concern her. It only becomes her business if he contracts HIV and he still fucks her without a condom. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/42 "2005-11-01T21:45:35Z")
**Dutch** , although I disagree with **Dio** on this issue, I don’t think your analogy holds water. A man is never going to catch pregnancy or abortions in his own body from a female partner, no matter how many of them she has. ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/43 "2005-11-01T21:59:43Z")
A question for **Diogenes** and those who agree with him: A man and women have agreed with each other that they want children. Secretly however, the man prefers to remain childless. He likes the sex though, and suspects that there would be less of it if they weren’t trying for children. So he goes off and secretly gets a vasectomy (yeah, I’m sure there are some practical problems with hiding such an operation from your wife – let’s assume he’s a good liar). Would you consider that immoral? If so: what’s the difference? Personally, I’d say that if there is such an emotional distance between two people that she wouldn’t share something of this magnitude with him, or that he wouldn’t be interested, then they have no business living together in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/44 "2005-11-01T22:04:57Z")
Oops, I see **Kimstu** already made the same point (about the man having a vasectomy). I’m still interested in the answer, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/45 "2005-11-01T22:07:03Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > He has no ownership of the baby even after it is born, so this is not about “ownership”. It can be “your offspring” without you “owning it”. It’s not “offspring” until it’s born. Until then it’s part of someone else’s body. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/46 "2005-11-01T22:09:05Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > A man has HIV. He always uses a condom Nope, his body doesn’t concern her. It only becomes her business if she contracts HIV. There is still a risk that she will catch a deadly disease so the anolgy is a non-starter. There isn’t even a theoretical chance that a man can be harmed or affected by a woman terminating a pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/47 "2005-11-01T22:13:31Z")
> [@Walton Firm](#): > > A question for **Diogenes** and those who agree with him: > > A man and women have agreed with each other that they want children. Secretly however, the man prefers to remain childless. He likes the sex though, and suspects that there would be less of it if they weren’t trying for children. So he goes off and secretly gets a vasectomy (yeah, I’m sure there are some practical problems with hiding such an operation from your wife – let’s assume he’s a good liar). > > Would you consider that immoral? If so: what’s the difference? > > Personally, I’d say that if there is such an emotional distance between two people that she wouldn’t share something of this magnitude with him, or that he wouldn’t be interested, then they have no business living together in the first place. I would not consider that immoral. She is not being harmed. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/48 "2005-11-01T22:15:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I would not consider that immoral. She is not being harmed. You honestly don’t see how someone is ‘harmed’ by that example? Is it just the wording of it? I think it’s clear that, in that example, someone is being defrauded. Do you disagree? Is that fraud value neutral in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/49 "2005-11-01T22:16:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I would not consider that immoral. She is not being harmed. But he’s still lying to her, even if only by omission. You don’t consider that immoral? Even between two people who pretend to be in a committed relationship with each other? Oh well, I guess we just have very different standards then. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/50 "2005-11-01T22:19:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What do YOU mean by okay? Sheesh. > > Let me put it this way; do you think your wife’s handling of her own body is entirely her business and none of yours, or don’t you? Be it an affair or an abortion, it’s her body. She has a right to sleep with whoever she wants. I don’t have to like it in order for her to have the right. I think this question is not quite analogous to abortion, though, because there is a chance that an unfaithful partner could pass a disease to the other partner. There is no chance that I can be harmed by my wife getting an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/51 "2005-11-01T22:23:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **Dutch** , although I disagree with **Dio** on this issue, I don’t think your analogy holds water. A man is never going to catch pregnancy or abortions in his own body from a female partner, no matter how many of them she has. Yeah, okay I withdraw it. I like the vasectomy anology way better anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/52 "2005-11-01T22:28:26Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > You honestly don’t see how someone is ‘harmed’ by that example? I honestly don’t. How is not getting a woman pregnant doing her any harm? > [@](#): > > Is it just the wording of it? I think it’s clear that, in that example, someone is being defrauded. Do you disagree? Is that fraud value neutral in your mind? I think it’s a trivial example of “fraud.” Everybody lies about something. I definitely don’t think it’s a _crime_. Incidentally, is this only supposed to be a “morals” discussion? I thought it was about whether women should be _legally_ mandated to tell a parner if they get an abortion. “Morally” speaking, I have no idea. It’s certainly not automatic. If it’s a meaningful relationship, I’m sure the woman would say something anyway. If she doesn’t say anything, it probably wasn’t much of a relationship anyway, so no harm done. ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/53 "2005-11-01T22:37:46Z")
> [@the OP](#): > > This is more of a moral question than a legal one. […] does she have any moral duty to notify the biological father regarding her plans? > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Incidentally, is this only supposed to be a “morals” discussion? I thought it was about whether women should be _legally_ mandated to tell a parner if they get an abortion. Do I detect a little back-pedalling here? The discussion so far has quite obviously been in terms of morality, not legality. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/54 "2005-11-01T22:54:07Z")
> [@SuaSponte](#): > > This thread is a demonstration that law and morality are not equivalent, despite the desparate attempts of some groups to make them so. > > Sua Beautiful. Legally, no. Morally, it depends. If I knocked up some chick from the local dive, I wouldn’t expect her to search me out to let me know she had an abortion. If my wife got pregnant, and I went with her to all the classes, made sure to do all the housework when she was unable to, got her icecream and pickles at midnight, bought all the baby gear, set up the kids room, bought the new minivan and generally supported her 100% in preparing for this kid, then yeah, she damn well has an obligation to discuss getting a 3rd trimester abortion, instead of telling me she had a “miscarriage”. DtC, if it was a legal question, it would be in GQ, and the first line of the OP wouldn’t be > [@](#): > > This is more of a moral question than a legal one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/55 "2005-11-01T22:57:24Z")
No backpedalling, just not very comprehensive reading. There’s another thread about Alito’s legal opinion on this issue and I assumed this thread was an extension of that discussion. I noticed people were expressing moral opinions but I thought they were just qualifying their opinions that it should not be illegal. I missed that it was in the OP In any case, I don’t think a woman has _either_ a moral or a legal obligation to tell anybody that she terminated a pregnancy so i’m not backing off anything. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/56 "2005-11-01T22:59:38Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > DtC, if it was a legal question, it would be in GQ I didn’t think it was a factual question about what the law IS, I thought it was a debate question about what the law SHOULD be. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/57 "2005-11-01T23:10:10Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > She has a right to sleep with whoever she wants. Could you email me a quick JPEG? Thanks dude, you’re a real sport. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/58 "2005-11-01T23:14:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I honestly don’t. How is not getting a woman pregnant doing her any harm? Well, at the very least, it’s extremely manipulative. If she knew that she would never have kids with this man, she would have the option to leave him and find someone who will give her the children she wants. By withholding that knowledge from him he denies her the possibility to make that decision, and effectively makes her stay with him and sleep with him under false pretext. And of course, the same thing is true for the OP’s question, just with the pronouns reversed. > [@](#): > > I think it’s a trivial example of “fraud.” Interesting definition of “trivial” you have. I’m sure there are plenty of people for whom such a lie (either the abortion thing or the vasectomy analogy) would be a relationship ender. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/59 "2005-11-01T23:27:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think it’s a trivial example of “fraud.” Everybody lies about something. I definitely don’t think it’s a _crime_. If the same woman goes out on the street and sets up a game of three-card monte and wins twenty bucks from some gullible stranger, is that trivial fraud? Because I know I’d feel far more hurt by my wife lying to me about something like this than I would by some stranger cheating me out of twenty bucks. I don’t see this as trivial at all: it’d be one of the deepest betrayals I could imagine a loved one doing to me. It shouldn’t be illegal, but it’d definitely be immoral. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900/60 "2005-11-01T23:54:25Z")
IMHO unquestionably YES (No Great Debates, and no minor debates IMHO) the father should know morally (and I would say legally also - though legally there might not be a darn thing he can do about it). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-a-woman-contemplating-abortion-owe-any-notice-to-the-father-of-the-baby/328900.md?page=4)