# Does Abortion Contradict the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961 "2009-08-27T22:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/1 "2009-08-27T22:28:13Z")
The Declaration of Independence states: > [@](#): > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. and the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution states: > [@](#): > > The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Both of these state that people have the right to live and not be aborted. Much like slavery does abortion contradict these principles? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/2 "2009-08-27T22:30:44Z")
The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, and the Continental Congress was talking about men, not women and children. The Tenth Amendment says nothing of the sort. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/3 "2009-08-27T22:32:12Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, and the Continental Congress was talking about men, not women and children. “Men” is often a shorthand term for people. > [@](#): > > The Tenth Amendment says nothing of the sort. It says the rights of people not delegated by the Constitution are given individuals. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/4 "2009-08-27T22:33:37Z")
The _really_ tricky bit is convincing everybody that fetuses are people. Not just third trimester fetuses, mind you - all of them, even the ones without hearts or spines or brains. Once you finish _that_, you then have to find legal support for not killing people in the constitution. It’s probably in the bit that lets states make laws against murder. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/5 "2009-08-27T22:46:25Z")
[_Roe v. Wade_](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/6 "2009-08-27T22:50:03Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > [_Roe v. Wade_](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113) Dred Scott V. Sanford Plassey V. Ferguson Both of these cases were decided by the Court was this the morally correct and rights decision? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/7 "2009-08-27T22:55:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > “Men” is often a shorthand term for people. It is now. Didn’t used to be. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It says the rights of people not delegated by the Constitution are given individuals. But it doesn’t say anything about life or abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/8 "2009-08-27T22:58:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > It is now. Didn’t used to be. > > But it doesn’t say anything about life or abortion. The right to live is a fundamental right. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/9 "2009-08-27T22:59:00Z")
Fetuses aren’t people. That’s the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/10 "2009-08-27T23:02:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Fetuses aren’t people. That’s the end of it. I’m sure Southern planters agree with you had you subsituted blacks for fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/11 "2009-08-27T23:03:59Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The right to live is a fundamental right. That may be true, but neither of the documents you cited establishes it as a legal principle. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/12 "2009-08-27T23:05:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m sure Southern planters agree with you had you subsituted blacks for fetuses. They’d probably also agree with him if he’d substituted “patio furniture” for fetuses. Look, chum. Some of us don’t buy that fetuses are people. You’ve done squat to change our minds. False equivalencies that assume we _already_ accept that fetuses are people ain’t going to help you much. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/13 "2009-08-27T23:06:59Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m sure Southern planters agree with you had you subsituted blacks for fetuses. Would you abort Hitler? Would you, could you at the Saenger? Would you, could you with a coat hanger? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/14 "2009-08-27T23:11:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Would you abort Hitler? No I would try to reform him as a child or failing that put him in a nuthouse. > [@](#): > > Would you, could you at the Saenger? > Would you, could you with a coat hanger? Neither of those are alive at all. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/15 "2009-08-27T23:21:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No I would try to reform him as a child or failing that put him in a nuthouse. > > Neither of those are alive at all. We can argue 'til Hell freezes, but laws aren’t made by Baby Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/16 "2009-08-27T23:26:50Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > We can argue 'til Hell freezes, > but laws aren’t made by Baby Jesus. Dude, he’s just not going to get it. Give up. (Even I got it, and I never read the book, so if he didn’t get it he’s not gonna. Plus his response about them not being alive was downright nonsensical.) I wonder why he hasn’t responded to _my_ posts? Hmm, I wonder… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/17 "2009-08-27T23:35:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m sure Southern planters agree with you had you subsituted blacks for fetuses. So fuckin’ what? I’m sure Hitler would agree with your thread title if you substituted “Letting Jews live” for “Abortion” and “the destiny of Germany” for “the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.” That’s because when you start substituting words, you change the fuckin’ meaning. It’s horrifyingly insulting and racist to compare a grown black person to a white fetus, you know. (Or to a black fetus, but if we’re twisting what one another says, let’s go whole hog). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/18 "2009-08-27T23:37:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > “Men” is often a shorthand term for people. Then why couldn’t women vote? > [@](#): > > It says the rights of people not delegated by the Constitution are given individuals. So, what about the rights of a woman to control of her own body? Who counts more as a person - an adult or a couple of cells? How about a fetus with no brain activity yet? When individuals die there is are death certificates and sometimes autopsies. When a few cells don’t make it, as is very often the case, no one knows. Even if the woman does know, no death report needs to be filed. Where do you draw the line? After fertilization and before implantation? At quickening? When there is brain activity? Do you want to ban birth control pills also? IUDs? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/19 "2009-08-27T23:40:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Then why couldn’t women vote? People were ignorant back then but we have improved and given more rights to more people. > [@](#): > > So, what about the rights of a woman to control of her own body? > > Who counts more as a person - an adult or a couple of cells? How about a fetus with no brain activity yet? When individuals die there is are death certificates and sometimes autopsies. When a few cells don’t make it, as is very often the case, no one knows. Even if the woman does know, no death report needs to be filed. > > Where do you draw the line? After fertilization and before implantation? At quickening? When there is brain activity? Do you want to ban birth control pills also? IUDs? I place it at conception so birth control yes morning after pills no. Also I support abortion if the mother’s life is at risk but otherwise the mother will not die from not having an abortion so I think the right to live is superior to the right of convenience. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/20 "2009-08-27T23:43:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I place it at conception Why? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also I support abortion if the mother’s life is at risk Why is this permissible? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=2)