# Does Abortion Contradict the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961 "2009-08-27T22:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/181 "2009-08-28T22:26:48Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It’s curious that you seem to be asserting that we are our DNA, _literally_. Could be problematic for identical twins… I’m really not trying to assert anything. I can’t possibly begin to try and define what makes “a person”. Der Trihs made the comment he was once dinner in his mom’s stomach and I was having trouble understanding what he meant by that. The only two possibilities I came up with were DNA and mass. I simply tried to anticipate it being one of those two and countering those claims. If he had something else in mind I’m hoping he’ll elaborate. But now that you mention it… identical twins don’t have identical [DNA](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/health/11real.html). Not that that means anything, since we are still without a definition of what defines “a person”. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/182 "2009-08-28T22:29:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Most of it did, since most of it is in the forms of copies. Then you are back to the mass argument. This would be akin to saying that the information on a photo copy came from a copy machine. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/183 "2009-08-28T23:40:44Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > It’s been pointed out the most pregnancies do end in a miscarriage (sometimes without the woman even knowing she was pregnant). > > Curtis, I’m curious how far are you willing to go to prevent women from procuring an (now illegal) abortion? Outlaw home pregnancy tests and require doctors to report all suspected pregnancies to the state? Require the public health department do invesitgate all miscarriages? Romania tried doing that. > > What about women with unwanted pregnancies who aren’t willing to resort to a back alley abortion, but neither are they willing to get prenatal care or make lifestyle changes? Would you support mandating all pregnant women get prenatal care on pain of being confined to an institution for the remainder of her pregnancy? How would you enforce this? A woman who kills her fetus by not doing what a pregnant woman should do (ie drink for instance) will be charged with child neglect. > [@Rucksinator](#): > > A partial list of those that disagree with you: > > 1.) Me > 2.) The Supreme Court > 3.) The Bible > > It’s the middle one that counts. > [ETA: 4 pages, huh? I haven’t read past post ~25, so sorry.] I’ve said this before but just because the Supreme Court said it does not mean it’s right! The Supreme Court are not some heavenly beings with a transcendent intelligence. They are fallible and considering it was a 5 to 4 decision… ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/184 "2009-08-28T23:45:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > A woman who kills her fetus by not doing what a pregnant woman should do (ie drink for instance) will be charged with child neglect. How do you plan to detect this? Prosecute it? I recommend caging them up, myself, so we can keep an eye on them. It’s the only way to protect liberty and happiness. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’ve said this before but just because the Supreme Court said it does not mean it’s right! The Supreme Court are not some heavenly beings with a transcendent intelligence. They are fallible and considering it was a 5 to 4 decision… I take it you feel the same way about the bible? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/185 "2009-08-28T23:53:58Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > How do you plan to detect this? Prosecute it? > > I recommend caging them up, myself, so we can keep an eye on them. It’s the only way to protect liberty and happiness. No. It’s like regular child abuse. > [@](#): > > I take it you feel the same way about the bible? Apologies but could you show me the exact Biblical passage where this is said? If it’s in the Old Testament much of it has been superseded by Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/186 "2009-08-29T00:01:18Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No. It’s like regular child abuse. Oh, I see. Have the fetus’s teacher report it, then. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Apologies but could you show me the exact Biblical passage where this is said? If it’s in the Old Testament much of it has been superseded by Jesus. **Rucksinator** said it, ask him. And Jesus superceded the law, but this isn’t a question of law. It’s a question of _fact_. Unless you are saying that in the OT days God sent souls at first breath, and that when Jesus came down God changed his soul delivery system to something completely different, just for the heaven of it? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/187 "2009-08-29T00:16:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Apologies but could you show me the exact Biblical passage where this is said? If it’s in the Old Testament much of it has been superseded by Jesus. Ah, then Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists can legally have abortions? Jolly good. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/188 "2009-08-29T00:22:00Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Then you are back to the mass argument. This would be akin to saying that the information on a photo copy came from a copy machine. Well, the information in this case came, with slight variations in each generation, from the first DNA synthesized, however that happened. It can’t be just DNA, since our hair and toenails have that. It has to be the entire system, booted and running, and while the DNA gives a lot of direction the prenatal environment has a lot to do with the person being slowly formed. That’s why nutrition is important. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/189 "2009-08-29T00:49:59Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Put them up for ADOPTION. > > That would also be horribly immoral in my opinion. I will have to write a statement sooner or later stating even if I should be in a vegetative state not to pull the plug from me. > > As for rapes and abortion why do you not execute the rapist who caused the conception but abort the baby who had no choice in this? You say put them up for adoption? You mean she should use her self for a brood mare, even if she cannot have prenatal care? Why don’t “you” adopt them? At the very least, sell every thing that is unnecessary that you own,eat only very cheap food, use only hand me down clothes etc., then send all the money to the people who are poor(become poor your self) and be willing to pay most of your salary in taxes so these people won’t starve. You don’t want a woman to take the morning after pill, even though the chances are good that she may not be pregnant, because you believe the egg fertile or not ,may become a baby? If adoption was so easy, there wouldn’t be so many starving babies. making the morning after pill available to every woman, raped, or otherwise would prevent a lot of abortions. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/190 "2009-08-29T01:09:58Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Quite frankly on the issue of organs I support organ harvesting prisoners once they have been screened for diseases. It’s the least prisoners can do to give back to society. You mean dead prisoners…right? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/191 "2009-08-29T01:21:30Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > You mean dead prisoners…right? Kidneys you can live without having them. ---
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/192 "2009-08-29T01:26:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > 1. I don’t believe in reincarnation. > 2. Were it true an animal would probably be a human suffering for sins in a past life therefore they’d deserve to be killed and eaten. Belief in reincarnation does not necessarily conform to the views of the religious traditions of India. Are you saying that you put more stock in Indian tradition than in all of the other traditions? Certain Native American religions? Orphism? A number of prominent Greek philosophers? Jewish traditions that involve Kabbalah? Christian Gnosticism (as well as certain pseudo-gnostic groups such as the Cathars)? Ismaili Muslims? Some expressions of Sufi Islam, the Druze? Why is Indian tradition necessarily the correct one? Of all the traditions I would think that one would be the least trustworthy in that regard. Assuming there is such a think as reincarnation, it’s more likely that this idea of Karmic punishment is just a logical extension of the same idea, originally intended for human castes. With castes, there was actually a functional reason for them - to legitimize the system of as a means of oppressing the natives of India and maintaining the prominence of the Aryan invaders. Even IF the the Indian traditions are correct though, the assertion is flawed regardless. Given the premise, there is no reason to believe that any given animal ever was a human. In fact, the given form might actually be their highest form that they have yet achieved. In such a case wouldn’t the person actually be receiving a reward by having been reincarnated as such? If you were to “punish” them, mightn’t you be accruing more Karma in doing so, causing you to be reborn in a lower form? I understand that some (perhaps many) Hindu’s see things way that you are (but in the case of humans), but it is not at all logical given the premise. At best it’s terribly simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/193 "2009-08-29T01:31:10Z")
> [@Aelita\_Daystar](#): > > Belief in reincarnation does not necessarily conform to the views of the religious traditions of India. Are you saying that you put more stock in Indian tradition than in all of the other traditions? Certain Native American religions? Orphism? A number of prominent Greek philosophers? Jewish traditions that involve Kabbalah? Christian Gnosticism (as well as certain pseudo-gnostic groups such as the Cathars)? Ismaili Muslims? Some expressions of Sufi Islam, the Druze? Why is Indian tradition necessarily the correct one? > > Of all the traditions I would think that one would be the least trustworthy in that regard. Assuming there is such a think as reincarnation, it’s more likely that this idea of Karmic punishment is just a logical extension of the same idea, originally intended for human castes. With castes, there was actually a functional reason for them - to legitimize the system of as a means of oppressing the natives of India and maintaining the prominence of the Aryan invaders. > > Even IF the the Indian traditions are correct though, the assertion is flawed regardless. Given the premise, there is no reason to believe that any given animal ever was a human. In fact, the given form might actually be their highest form that they have yet achieved. In such a case wouldn’t the person actually be receiving a reward by having been reincarnated as such? If you were to “punish” them, mightn’t you be accruing more Karma in doing so, causing you to be reborn in a lower form? I understand that some (perhaps many) Hindu’s see things way that you are (but in the case of humans), but it is not at all logical given the premise. At best it’s terribly simplistic. Well several family members of mine are Buddhist so when I think of reincarnation I think Hindoo/Buddhist. And if the animal was rising to a higher form wouldn’t I be doing a favour by killing it since then it can be born a human? ---
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/194 "2009-08-29T01:43:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well several family members of mine are Buddhist so when I think of reincarnation I think Hindoo/Buddhist. And if the animal was rising to a higher form wouldn’t I be doing a favour by killing it since then it can be born a human? I think that could be a gray area, logically speaking (Of course the same might be said for the argument that if mainstream Christians are correct, wouldn’t you be doing a favor by killing them since they will go to heaven?). Given the premise, if you were to kill an animal it might very well go onto be a human, but on the other hand it might not have shed enough Karma to advance. So, I suppose it is possible that you could be delaying their advancement, having to be born again in the same form. Then you have other issues of causing them pain in killing them, depriving them of whatever they had in that life (like a wild animal who has gotten themselves a really good mate or a large Harem). ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/195 "2009-08-29T01:55:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Kidneys you can live without having them. Its not like they need retinas either. They’ll just use them to aid in further crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/196 "2009-08-29T02:38:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Kidneys you can live without having them. Should I be compelled to give up one of my kidneys if it will save a person from death? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/197 "2009-08-29T02:41:34Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Kidneys you can live without having them. Provided you’re in a tub of ice water, right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/198 "2009-08-29T04:14:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Kidneys you can live without having them. Abortion is bad, but taking organs from living people is good if the person is bad. Despite what you say about Jesus, your morality (if it can be called such) is pure Old Testament due to its focus on harsh punishment for people you’ve deemed guilty and protection for those you’ve decided are innocent. There’s a good reason most of us don’t want to be subjected to this kind of whimsy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/199 "2009-08-29T05:54:45Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Kidneys you can live without having them. Sometimes I _really_ hate being a Moderator. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/200 "2009-08-29T06:29:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Apologies but could you show me the exact Biblical passage where this is said? If it’s in the Old Testament much of it has been superseded by Jesus. > [@](#): > > Exodus 21: 22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. > > 23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, > > 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, > > 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. > > 26And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake. It’s pretty clear here that, while a fetus has value (particularly to the father), it is far less than that of a human. If you’ve read much of the OT, it would be obvious that, if a fetus was on the same standing as a “person”, the punishment for causing a miscarriage would be death. Ergo, the OT does not consider a fetus to be a “person”. And then there is Numbers 5:11 - 28, which is not at all clear, but seems to imply that an unfaithful wife should be put through a test where an extramerital pregnancy would be aborted through God’s intervention. There are other verses that imply that children less than 1 month old don’t need to be counted as “persons”. That puts the Bible about 7 months more pro-choice than the findings in Roe v Wade. Of course, I’m sure that none of this matters. I was probably way off-base in even suspecting that your opinions were based on religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=11)