# Does Abortion Contradict the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961 "2009-08-27T22:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/201 "2009-08-29T08:53:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I place it at conception so birth control yes morning after pills no. Also I support abortion if the mother’s life is at risk but otherwise the mother will not die from not having an abortion so I think the right to live is superior to the right of convenience. It’s perfectly acceptable for you to make this judgment call for yourself. It’s not acceptable for you to make it for someone else. The courts have not agreed with you that a fetus is a person with equal rights so your arguments concerning the our founding documents are personal opinion with no legal standing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/202 "2009-08-29T13:04:49Z")
I’ll add a bit more. For the laws of the land to apply to our incredibly diverse population what any one individual or group thinks or feels can only be nominally relevant. No person can legitimately claim to\* know\* when a conception results in a person. No person can realistically claim to\* know\* how their particular deity views abortion. {Unless there’s some recent prophet who has made some clarification I haven’t been informed about} If we value human life we can value the potential that exists at conception. We can make the effort to teach others to value that potential and do what we can to offer safe economical sensible alternatives to abortion. We can, with effort, demonstrate our value of human life by doing a better job of caring for the lives that are already in the world. Other than that I propose we also value people’s freedom to choose for themselves according to their own beliefs and conscience and let whatever god may or may not be there make the judgment about those choices until we have evidence which is more distinct. From a theological pov I asked a conservative friend of mine if God’s will can be frustrated? Just as scientific breakthroughs allowed us to save lives by conquering disease we also have different choices to make now than society’s had several hundred years ago. Is there any way for mere mortals to prevent a soul from coming into the world that God intended to be here? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/203 "2009-08-29T15:04:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Abortion is bad, but taking organs from living people is good if the person is bad. Despite what you say about Jesus, your morality (if it can be called such) is pure Old Testament due to its focus on harsh punishment for people you’ve deemed guilty and protection for those you’ve decided are innocent. There’s a good reason most of us don’t want to be subjected to this kind of whimsy. It’s quite utilitarian and at the same time moralistic. Since you can live without kidneys and many people are dying from ill kidneys shouldn’t prisoners give something back to the community to save lives? > [@Rucksinator](#): > > It’s pretty clear here that, while a fetus has value (particularly to the father), it is far less than that of a human. If you’ve read much of the OT, it would be obvious that, if a fetus was on the same standing as a “person”, the punishment for causing a miscarriage would be death. Ergo, the OT does not consider a fetus to be a “person”. > > And then there is Numbers 5:11 - 28, which is not at all clear, but seems to imply that an unfaithful wife should be put through a test where an extramerital pregnancy would be aborted through God’s intervention. > > There are other verses that imply that children less than 1 month old don’t need to be counted as “persons”. That puts the Bible about 7 months more pro-choice than the findings in Roe v Wade. > > Of course, I’m sure that none of this matters. I was probably way off-base in even suspecting that your opinions were based on religion. As I’ve said much of the Old Testament has been superseded by Jesus’ New Covenent. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/204 "2009-08-29T16:16:31Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As I’ve said much of the Old Testament has been superseded by Jesus’ New Covenent. Tell me where Jesus addresses the abortion issue, please. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/205 "2009-08-29T16:20:53Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s quite utilitarian and at the same time moralistic. Since you can live without kidneys and many people are dying from ill kidneys shouldn’t prisoners give something back to the community to save lives? Taking something from someone without their permission for the good of the community-isn’t that Communism? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/206 "2009-08-29T16:23:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Taking something from someone without their permission for the good of the community-isn’t that Communism? I can’t see how you could object to this. People who crimes give back to their community, several thousand lives are saved, and everyone except criminals are happier for it. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/207 "2009-08-29T17:09:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I can’t see how you could object to this. People who crimes give back to their community, several thousand lives are saved, and everyone except criminals are happier for it. How about: -Because the purpose of prison is (supposed to be, anyway) rehabilitation, not punishment. -Because not all prisoners are not evil unreformable lunatics. -Because it’s wrong to forcibly mutilate and steal from someone’s body, no matter who the victim is. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/208 "2009-08-29T17:12:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > They’d probably also agree with him if he’d substituted “patio furniture” for fetuses. HEY! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/209 "2009-08-29T17:15:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s quite utilitarian and at the same time moralistic. Since you can live without kidneys and many people are dying from ill kidneys shouldn’t prisoners give something back to the community to save lives? > > As I’ve said much of the Old Testament has been superseded by Jesus’ New Covenent. Where does the New Testament say that abortion is bad? ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/210 "2009-08-29T17:15:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As I’ve said much of the Old Testament has been superseded by Jesus’ New Covenent. I love how Christians use this argument to cherry-pick parts of the OT that they like and throw out the rest. “Can’t wear clothes made of 2 different materials? SUPERSEDED! Can’t play football? SUPERSEDED! Can’t eat pork chops? SUPERSEDED! We should kill homos? We’ll keep that one. Fetus’ aren’t counted until 1 month after birth? SUPERSEDED!” But I’ll second the request that you cite some NT verses that contradict the ones that I’ve posted. (or even OT) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/211 "2009-08-29T17:20:11Z")
It kind of makes sense when it comes to following codes and laws, and saying that something that previously was forbidden no longer is. It makes no sense at all to say that something which was NOT forbidden in the OT suddenly BECOMES forbidden, even if the NT says nothing about it. The OT does not forbid the chewing of gum. Does that mean the chewing of gum is now forbidden because of the new covenant? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/212 "2009-08-29T17:21:48Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s quite utilitarian and at the same time moralistic. Since you can live without kidneys and many people are dying from ill kidneys shouldn’t prisoners give something back to the community to save lives? Aside from the fact that this is a stupid idea and obviously murder, it would cause more deaths by diverting health care resources from people who are already sick. So it’s not moralistic, it’s just bloodlust. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/213 "2009-08-29T17:33:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Since you can live without kidneys and many people are dying from ill kidneys shouldn’t prisoners give something back to the community to save lives? There seems to be a lack of understanding on your part on the role of kidneys. You say people can live without kidneys, then you say people are dying from ill kidneys. Kidneys are needed to live. Dialysis can substitute for kidneys for a while, but with a lot of increased morbidity and mortality. Kidneys do the job much better than dialysis, at a much lower cost, with much less damage to the body. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/214 "2009-08-29T19:27:53Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Kidneys you can live without having them. But then how become a Jedi, will you? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/215 "2009-08-29T21:28:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I can’t see how you could object to this. People who crimes give back to their community, several thousand lives are saved, and everyone except criminals are happier for it. What crime did a rape _victim_ commit that she should be forced to give up use of her body for 9 months and risk permanent damage to her physical and mental _health_? Forcing a rape victim to bear a child against her will is completely different than forcing a convicted criminal to give up an organ against his will. A better analogy would be if I when I was in hospital after my car accident the surgeons who were puting my kneecap back together decided that since another patient was admited to the hospital in renal failure they might as well take one of my kidney’s out and give it to them without bothering to wake me up to get consent. After all Alphaboi only needs one kidney to live and the other patient will die without one. No rational person would think that scenario was anything less than monstrous, yet forcing a woman to bear a child againset her will is somehow okay. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/216 "2009-08-29T21:36:03Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Kidneys you can live without having them. Especially on a prison diet of “Mystery Loaf”. I mean, it’s practically undigestable anyway. You don’t need your stomach or intestines either. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/217 "2009-08-29T21:39:40Z")
Jesus, this OP is mixed up. Abortions=bad, harvesting organs from living prisoners=good? Yikes, that’s a selective brand of morality that even this normally quasi-conservative can bear. I am sure Jesus would not approve of forcible removal of organs from living people that were under no threat of imminent death. Well, except for the organ removal process, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/218 "2009-08-29T21:42:40Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Jesus, this OP is mixed up. Abortions=bad, harvesting organs from living prisoners=good? > > Yikes, that’s a selective brand of morality that even this normally quasi-conservative can bear. I don’t see the contradiction myself - they’re both about punishing people of whom the OP disapproves. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/219 "2009-08-29T22:11:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t see the contradiction myself - they’re both about punishing people of whom the OP disapproves. I can understand the argument against abortion. I cannot understand the argument for harvesting organs from living people just because they are prisoners. Jesus was an advocate for redemption, a quality the OP is ignoring by claiming it’s OK to do so. What about innocent people being imprisoned (and then subjected to that treatment)? What about a rehabilitative environment for prisoners? The OP wants it both ways…he wants to claim New Testament covenant when it suits him and Old Testament wrath and revenge-style punishments when it suits his argument. Personally I find the idea of harvesting organs from unwilling, living people to be absolutely horrifying, whether they are prisoners or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/220 "2009-08-29T22:38:18Z")
I didn’t say the positions were well-reasoned, only that they didn’t contradict each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=12)