# Does Abortion Contradict the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961 "2009-08-27T22:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/301 "2009-09-02T17:41:27Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Freedom of association 😛 What if there are twins? Can one get a restraining order against the other, require a 500-foot buffer zone? > [@Hamlet](#): > > You want to run through the Bill of Rights? Speech - No. Religion - No. Press - No. Assembly - No. Petition the Government - Not entirely. Firearms - No. Protection of Quartering of Troops (Boy there’s a joke in there screaming to get out) - No. > > Need I go on? No, I think this firmly establishes that whatever compromise you claim to be offering is a sham. Once implantation occurs, I guess under your rules the mother’s rights are thoroughly trumped and she’s just shit outta luck. A joke indeed, just not a funny one. What penalties did you have in mind for a woman who knowingly or through negligence causes a post-implanted embryo/fetus to be terminated? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/302 "2009-09-02T19:17:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No, I think this firmly establishes that whatever compromise you claim to be offering is a sham. Once implantation occurs, I guess under your rules the mother’s rights are thoroughly trumped and she’s just shit outta luck. A joke indeed, just not a funny one. Why do this? I’ve done nothing but explain my position to you, answer your questions, and all you have to resort to ad hominems, strawmen, and name calling? Why? Are you incapable of debate? > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > What penalties did you have in mind for a woman who knowingly or through negligence causes a post-implanted embryo/fetus to be terminated? Misdemeanor charges with a short term of probation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/303 "2009-09-02T19:27:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Ah. I shamefully concede that I have a hard time keeping track of what everybody’s position is on everything around here, so unless I’ve gotten hitched up to an ongoing discussion with somebody I tend not to just respond to what I see. > > In other words, me gotted whooshed. :smack: I guess my assumption of the right to life position was too convincing. And **Hamlet** says I don’t understand it. 🆒 > [@](#): > > If the removal procedure was sufficiently inexpensive and nonproblematic, it eludes my why _anybody_ would do things ‘the old fashioned way’ with wombots available - or even why we’d make it legal to do so. We don’t let mothers drive babies around without car seats, even if the mother is a careful driver; why would we let women drive fetuses around without taking reasonable precautions to protect the kid from their biology, even if they’re careful about what they partake of? > > (Also, pregnancy sounds like six or seven different kinds of no fun. Though I guess some people must like it…) Precisely. And then the questions I had for **Bricker** , which he never responded to, are relevant. If some poor schnook knocks over a tray of cells, is he a mass murderer? ---
**Author:** ![sylvian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@sylvian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylvian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/304 "2009-09-14T09:25:54Z")
Why is it legal to have an Abortion, but illegal to touch a bald eagle feather in the United States? It seems like the animal rights activist are the same people that are pro abortion. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/305 "2009-09-14T13:27:52Z")
The baby-killing abortion doctors use bald eagle feathers in their procedure. If you take one then those guys won’t be able to kill as many babies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/306 "2009-09-14T13:38:40Z")
> [@sylvian](#): > > Why is it legal to have an Abortion, but illegal to touch a bald eagle feather in the United States? It seems like the animal rights activist are the same people that are pro abortion. \< google \> The “[eagle feather law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_feather_law)” appears to be about Native American religion and racial politics, not animal rights. As for abortion, it’s allowed because women have a moral right to control their own bodies, and because a fetus is just a clump of cells. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/307 "2009-09-14T21:44:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Then why couldn’t women vote? > > So, what about the rights of a woman to control of her own body? > > Who counts more as a person - an adult or a couple of cells? How about a fetus with no brain activity yet? When individuals die there is are death certificates and sometimes autopsies. When a few cells don’t make it, as is very often the case, no one knows. Even if the woman does know, no death report needs to be filed. > > Where do you draw the line? After fertilization and before implantation? At quickening? When there is brain activity? Do you want to ban birth control pills also? IUDs? It all comes down to whether or not a fetus is human. If a fetus is human then does a woman’s right to choose really trump a person’s right to live? If I shot an obviously pregnant (say 8 months) woman in the uterus and killed the fetus, am I guilty of assault or murder? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/308 "2009-09-15T00:15:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > \< google \> The “[eagle feather law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_feather_law)” appears to be about Native American religion and racial politics, not animal rights. As for abortion, it’s allowed because women have a moral right to control their own bodies, and because a fetus is just a clump of cells. Then why not concern for pro-life Christian/Jewish/Muslim religion politics in banning abortion? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/309 "2009-09-15T00:16:47Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > It all comes down to whether or not a fetus is human. If a fetus is human then does a woman’s right to choose really trump a person’s right to live? Wrong. It comes down (for some people) to whether the fetus is a _person_. (And for some people, even _that_ is irrelevent.) But \*nobody \*cares if it’s merely human. Fingernails are human. Hair is human. Tumors are human and appendixes are human. (And these last two are even _alive_!). As demonstrated by these examples, just being human doesn’t cut the mustard. > [@col\_10022](#): > > If I shot an obviously pregnant (say 8 months) woman in the uterus and killed the fetus, am I guilty of assault or murder? Depends on who you ask, and where you are. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/310 "2009-09-15T00:18:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Then why not concern for pro-life Christian/Jewish/Muslim religion politics in banning abortion? Since you ask so nicely, we’ll allow Christian/Jewish/Muslim people refrain from getting abortions, if they don’t want them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/311 "2009-09-15T00:37:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Since you ask so nicely, we’ll allow Christian/Jewish/Muslim people refrain from getting abortions, if they don’t want them. Then why not just let Amerindians not harm eagles if they wish why ban everyone from doing so. Same logic here. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/312 "2009-09-15T01:11:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, and the Continental Congress was talking about men, not women and children. > > The Tenth Amendment says nothing of the sort. You have to be kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/313 "2009-09-15T01:29:53Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Then why not concern for pro-life Christian/Jewish/Muslim religion politics in banning abortion? Because they are trying to force their beliefs on the bodies of women who disagree with them. An entirely different level of disagreement than what to do with bird feathers. And there’s plenty of “concern” for their religious beliefs; far more than there should be in my opinion. They _ **should** _ be given the same level of respect as someone who claims that God demands that blacks be enslaved; none whatsoever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=15)