# Does Abortion Contradict the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961 "2009-08-27T22:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/21 "2009-08-27T23:45:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I place it at conception so birth control yes morning after pills no. How angry are you with God for killing so many babies? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/22 "2009-08-27T23:47:51Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also I support abortion if the mother’s life is at risk but otherwise the mother will not die from not having an abortion so I think the right to live is superior to the right of convenience. What if the fetus will not live to delivery? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/23 "2009-08-27T23:48:00Z")
At the time of the signing of the Constitution, inducing miscarriage in the first trimester (“before quickening”)was a perfectly legal and accepted practice. Therefore, there is a non-specious argument that the right to abortion is guaranteed by the 9th Amendment as a right recognized by and reserved to the people. ETA: Ninth Amendment: _The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people._ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/24 "2009-08-27T23:52:18Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also I support abortion if the mother’s life is at risk but otherwise the mother will not die from not having an abortion so I think the right to live is superior to the right of convenience. In other words, you regard women as cattle, or less than cattle. You think that a mindless lump of flesh deserves to use them for its vehicle regardless of their wishes; you think that women are _ **inferior** _ to a mindless mass of flesh. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/25 "2009-08-27T23:52:23Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Both of these state that people have the right to live and not be aborted. Much like slavery does abortion contradict these principles? A) Breaking an egg is not the same thing as hacking the head off of a chicken. B) There are groups of people in the world who believe that our ancestors are reborn into other animals. For instance, the steak you had for dinner could have been your great grandpa up until the point you paid someone to kill him and serve the bits to you for dinner. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/26 "2009-08-27T23:57:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, you regard women as cattle, or less than cattle. You think that a mindless lump of flesh deserves to use them for its vehicle regardless of their wishes; you think that women are _ **inferior** _ to a mindless mass of flesh. I think fetuses have the right to live and they’re no mindless lumps of flesh, they will be human beings. I marvel at how you could say this considering YOU were once a fetus. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > A) Breaking an egg is not the same thing as hacking the head off of a chicken. > B) There are groups of people in the world who believe that our ancestors are reborn into other animals. For instance, the steak you had for dinner could have been your great grandpa up until the point you paid someone to kill him and serve the bits to you for dinner. 1. I don’t believe in reincarnation. 2. Were it true an animal would probably be a human suffering for sins in a past life therefore they’d deserve to be killed and eaten. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/27 "2009-08-27T23:59:13Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Both of these state that people have the right to live and not be aborted. They do not make any statement about abortion. You are _interpreting_ them to extend their meaning to abortion. To say they “state” anything about abortion is to assume the conclusion. > [@](#): > > Much like slavery does abortion contradict these principles? No. A more reasonable reading of the phase “the right to life” is ‘people who are living have the right to keep living.’ It might be fair to add ‘and they should not be deprived of that right by a government.’ I don’t think it makes sense to extend this to persons not yet born or sperm, zygotes, embryos or fetuses. If you can find any reference to fetuses in the writings of any of the authors of these two documents, you should mention it. But I think it’s quite obvious this is not what they were talking about. Slavery directly contradicted all three of these, particularly the principle of liberty and of the pursuit of happiness. You can’t have liberty or pursue happiness if you are not alive, so I don’t think those two can be said to apply here either. Regarding the Tenth Amendment: abortion is not a power delegated to the states, so I’m not sure how that enters into this argument at all. I assume you are trying to say that the federal government does not have the power to make abortion legal, but I don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/28 "2009-08-27T23:59:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > 1. Were it true an animal would probably be a human suffering for sins in a past life therefore they’d deserve to be killed and eaten. Kill them all for their meat, help them join the Blessed Elite! ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/29 "2009-08-28T00:00:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m sure Southern planters agree with you had you subsituted blacks for fetuses. You know whats fun to do when people start down this route? Lock them in a room with a vegan. Not one of the vast majority who quietly make eating preferences, but a vocal, proselytizing, and politically active vegan (PETA membership a bonus) who loves to use similar lines of thought to justify extensive animal rights and veganism. 'Course, until one comes back to the room to check on them there’s no way to tell if the vegan is going to become anti-choice, or if the anti-choice person will come out vegan, or both, or neither. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/30 "2009-08-28T00:02:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I think fetuses have the right to live and they’re no mindless lumps of flesh, they will be human beings. I marvel at how you could say this considering YOU were once a fetus. I was also yogurt and steaks and tacos and everything else, once - through the magic of biochemical processess (among them, digestion), all those things have become me. Fetus, same thing, if you’re talking prior to brain activity, which you _are_. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/31 "2009-08-28T00:03:10Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > 'Course, until one comes back to the room to check on them there’s no way to tell if the vegan is going to become anti-choice, or if the anti-choice person will come out vegan, or both, or neither. Schroedinger’s debate. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/32 "2009-08-28T00:04:51Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > 1. I don’t believe in reincarnation. I don’t believe that a lump of protoplasm is a person. Just as I don’t believe that egg white is a chicken. ---
**Author:** ![Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8baadc/32.png) [@Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nicest_of_the_Damned)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/33 "2009-08-28T00:08:26Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also I support abortion if the mother’s life is at risk but otherwise the mother will not die from not having an abortion so I think the right to live is superior to the right of convenience. I guess that covers my life but it pretty well limits my liberty and pursuit of happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/34 "2009-08-28T00:08:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I think fetuses have the right to live and they’re no mindless lumps of flesh, they will be human beings. I marvel at how you could say this considering YOU were once a fetus. And before that, I was a sperm. Should that fact require me to be anti-masturbation? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/35 "2009-08-28T00:12:32Z")
> [@Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](#): > > I guess that covers my life but it pretty well limits my liberty and pursuit of happiness. Abortion limits the liberty and pursuit of happiness for the million aborted babies a year. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/36 "2009-08-28T00:13:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And before that, I was a sperm. Should that fact require me to be anti-masturbation? Actually it means that if you through negligence allow a sperm to fail to become a baby (_each_ sperm, not each copulation or ejaculation), then you’re guilty of manslaughter (of _babies_ no less), at the very _least_. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/37 "2009-08-28T00:14:17Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Abortion limits the liberty and pursuit of happiness for the million aborted babies a year. What babies? Nobody aborts babies. Just fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/38 "2009-08-28T00:24:21Z")
Fetuses aren’t people. Fetuses aren’t people. Fetuses aren’t people. How many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it one. Fetuses aren’t people. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8baadc/32.png) [@Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nicest_of_the_Damned)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/39 "2009-08-28T00:25:26Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Abortion limits the liberty and pursuit of happiness for the million aborted babies a year. Why should the fetus get more rights than I do? I recently read about a woman who had some kind of complications during childbirth that left her blind and with several limbs amputated. I don’t care if the odds of that happening are 1 in a million bazillion, I am not going to risk that. There are plenty of other risks that are less extreme but still significant. There is no other situation where I would be required to risk my health for the benefit of someone else. It’s not about “inconvenience.” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/40 "2009-08-28T00:32:58Z")
> [@Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](#): > > Why should the fetus get more rights than I do? > > I recently read about a woman who had some kind of complications during childbirth that left her blind and with several limbs amputated. I don’t care if the odds of that happening are 1 in a million bazillion, I am not going to risk that. > > There are plenty of other risks that are less extreme but still significant. There is no other situation where I would be required to risk my health for the benefit of someone else. It’s not about “inconvenience.” Then take the Pill or abstain from sex. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=3)