# Does Abortion Contradict the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961 "2009-08-27T22:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/161 "2009-08-28T18:33:22Z")
I understand why some people are against abortion. They should not have one. But, when they say" I do not believe in abortion therefore you should not have one ", they lose me. Not everybody shares your values. Do not presume you have the right to make important personal decisions in other peoples lives. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/162 "2009-08-28T18:44:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I understand why some people are against abortion. They should not have one. But, when they say" I do not believe in abortion therefore you should not have one ", they lose me. Not everybody shares your values. Do not presume you have the right to make important personal decisions in other peoples lives. While I agree with this I think those opposed to abortion see it as murder and are right to think that no one (or nearly so) thinks it is ok to go around killing people because you want to. There are prohibitions against that and rightly so an one neither you or I would deem and infringement on our rights. Just playing Devil’s Advocate. Again I agree with what you just wrote pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/163 "2009-08-28T18:47:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > While I agree with this I think those opposed to abortion see it as murder and are right to think that no one (or nearly so) thinks it is ok to go around killing people because you want to. There are prohibitions against that and rightly so an one neither you or I would deem and infringement on our rights. > > Just playing Devil’s Advocate. Again I agree with what you just wrote pretty much. The problem with their argument ( besides the fact that I think most are lying and just want to hurt the woman ) is that by calling it murder, all they do is create a class of “murder” that isn’t wrong. Call it abortion; call it murder; call it whatever you like but it’s still just destroying a mindless thing. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/164 "2009-08-28T18:53:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The problem with their argument ( besides the fact that I think most are lying and just want to hurt the woman ) is that by calling it murder, all they do is create a class of “murder” that isn’t wrong. Call it abortion; call it murder; call it whatever you like but it’s still just destroying a mindless thing. Yes. The _key_ problem is the claiming that cell-clumps are people and that zygotes are “babies”. The business about murder falls away without that difference of opinion about the state of things. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/165 "2009-08-28T18:56:19Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If the mother’s life is in danger I support abortion but no way else. It’s the choice of the fetus dying at the sake of the convenience of the mother. You’ve made this argument twice now. Pregnancy is not, by any stretch of the imagination, binary in terms of being a threat to the mother. It is a completely continuous scale on just how much of a threat pregnancy is. _Every_ pregnancy is a threat to the mother’s life. Where do you draw the line and who can determine whether a woman is over or under that line? ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/166 "2009-08-28T19:00:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And at one point I was the dinner digesting in my mother’s stomach. A bit of a sidetrack here. You were at one point the dinner in your mom’s stomach only in the same way that you are now the dinner in your own stomach. A woman is born with all the eggs she will ever have. Unlike men who produce sperm during their lifetime, women do not produce eggs. Sure, as a fetus you needed the nutrients from your mom’s dinner to grow, but the egg from which you developed was actually part of your grandma’s dinner, not your mom’s. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/167 "2009-08-28T19:14:31Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > A bit of a sidetrack here. You were at one point the dinner in your mom’s stomach only in the same way that you are now the dinner in your own stomach. A woman is born with all the eggs she will ever have. Unlike men who produce sperm during their lifetime, women do not produce eggs. Sure, as a fetus you needed the nutrients from your mom’s dinner to grow, but the egg from which you developed was actually part of your grandma’s dinner, not your mom’s. But most of my body mass came from her ( and then later, from me ). And for that matter even that egg cell would be mostly composed of water from my mother, not from my grandmother. And of course when you get right down to it, _I_, the person wasn’t around then at all, just the start of the body that would later become me. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/168 "2009-08-28T19:52:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I place it at conception so birth control yes morning after pills no. I’ve only read through the 1st page of this thread but it appears as if no one’s yet addressed this. The morning after pill does NOT cause an abortion. It prevents conception. It’s a form of birth control. It’s an ineffective one because it has around a 75%-50%-25% chance of avoiding a pregnancy through days 2,3,and 4 respectively, and it does nothing to prevent STDs, but it’s merely a contraceptive. If you don’t believe me, please look it up and educate yourself on what you claim to be against. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/169 "2009-08-28T20:01:45Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, I mean the rape is horrible and evil but if the victim’s pregnant I believe it has to be carried to term for a life has been created. A rape is over in minutes. Forcing a woman to bear the child of a rapist against her will is making that rape last 9 months. What makes rape different from sex? Lack of consent. That is exactly what you are advocating - forcing a woman to give up her body against her wishes. That is despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/170 "2009-08-28T20:05:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If it’s aborted, it won’t be a life. Therefore, your argument falls apart. > P1 We don’t destroy historic buildings. > > P2 If you wait long enough, and it’s not destroyed by miscarriage, then any building will eventually become a historic building. > > P3 Therefore, we can’t destroy \*any \*buildings. > > That is the argument I see you making here. That is the first original argument I’ve seen on this issue in years! I’m going to steal this analogy. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/171 "2009-08-28T20:18:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That is the first original argument I’ve seen on this issue in years! I’m going to steal this analogy. Thanks, and feel free! Now, I just want to see him try to _rebut_ it. 😃 (Though, it should have been “C”, not “P3”. D’oh!) ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/172 "2009-08-28T20:46:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Where do you draw the line? After fertilization and before implantation? At quickening? When there is brain activity? Do you want to ban birth control pills also? IUDs? How about at the Christian biblical viewpoint – first breath? No legal standing in the U.S., but that makes a good, definite point. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/173 "2009-08-28T21:28:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It will be life. That is what I’m saying. Barring a nowadays relatively trivial possiblity of miscarriage the fetus will be born a person… It’s been pointed out the most pregnancies do end in a miscarriage (sometimes without the woman even knowing she was pregnant). Curtis, I’m curious how far are you willing to go to prevent women from procuring an (now illegal) abortion? Outlaw home pregnancy tests and require doctors to report all suspected pregnancies to the state? Require the public health department do invesitgate all miscarriages? Romania tried doing that. What about women with unwanted pregnancies who aren’t willing to resort to a back alley abortion, but neither are they willing to get prenatal care or make lifestyle changes? Would you support mandating all pregnant women get prenatal care on pain of being confined to an institution for the remainder of her pregnancy? How would you enforce this? ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/174 "2009-08-28T21:33:34Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I place it at conception … A partial list of those that disagree with you: 1.) Me 2.) The Supreme Court 3.) The Bible It’s the middle one that counts. [ETA: 4 pages, huh? I haven’t read past post ~25, so sorry.] ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/175 "2009-08-28T21:59:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But most of my body mass came from her ( and then later, from me ). And for that matter even that egg cell would be mostly composed of water from my mother, not from my grandmother. > > And of course when you get right down to it, _I_, the person wasn’t around then at all, just the start of the body that would later become me. I’ll make this last argument than bow out, mostly because I don’t want to derail the original thread and I can easily see this going down a rabbit hole. I don’t have any clue how much the eggs your mom were born with will grow during her lifetime, so I can’t really say how much water and other nutrients they acquire through her. But my two main points remain: 1. The DNA from your mom’s side did not in any way come from her dinner. 2. The only way her dinner contributed to “you” was exactly the same way your dinner contributes to you now. In other words, we probably agree, but I’m still not sure what you initially meant when you said you were once your mom’s dinner. Your dad’s dinner, sure, but not your mom’s. If you are going to claim you were once your mom’s dinner, you might as well argue you were also once part of a star. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/176 "2009-08-28T22:07:14Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I’ll make this last argument than bow out, mostly because I don’t want to derail the original thread and I can easily see this going down a rabbit hole. > > I don’t have any clue how much the eggs your mom were born with will grow during her lifetime, so I can’t really say how much water and other nutrients they acquire through her. But my two main points remain: > > 1. The DNA from your mom’s side did not in any way come from her dinner. > 2. The only way her dinner contributed to “you” was exactly the same way your dinner contributes to you now. > > In other words, we probably agree, but I’m still not sure what you initially meant when you said you were once your mom’s dinner. Your dad’s dinner, sure, but not your mom’s. If you are going to claim you were once your mom’s dinner, you might as well argue you were also once part of a star. It’s curious that you seem to be asserting that we are our DNA, _literally_. Could be problematic for identical twins… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/177 "2009-08-28T22:17:07Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > 1. The DNA from your mom’s side did not in any way come from her dinner. Most of it did, since most of it is in the forms of copies. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/178 "2009-08-28T22:20:41Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > It’s been pointed out the most pregnancies do end in a miscarriage (sometimes without the woman even knowing she was pregnant). > > Curtis, I’m curious how far are you willing to go to prevent women from procuring an (now illegal) abortion? Outlaw home pregnancy tests and require doctors to report all suspected pregnancies to the state? Require the public health department do invesitgate all miscarriages? Romania tried doing that. > > What about women with unwanted pregnancies who aren’t willing to resort to a back alley abortion, but neither are they willing to get prenatal care or make lifestyle changes? Would you support mandating all pregnant women get prenatal care on pain of being confined to an institution for the remainder of her pregnancy? How would you enforce this? I think we should arrest women who get abortions and charge them with murdering a federal employee. I mean, the clump of cells is not a federal employee _yet_, but it \*might \*be some day. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/179 "2009-08-28T22:23:42Z")
Heck, all the arguments about the fetus being alive, human, a person, whatever, are a waste of time. I invite Curtis to tell us how he’d deal with someone who broke into his house and was determined not to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961/180 "2009-08-28T22:25:28Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > I think we should arrest women who get abortions and charge them with murdering a federal employee. I mean, the clump of cells is not a federal employee _yet_, but it \*might \*be some day. No, clearly the Secret Service should arresting them for killing the President! After all, aren’t we told that anyone can grow up to be President? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-abortion-contradict-the-declaration-of-independence-and-the-constitution/507961.md?page=10)