# Does absolute power ALWAYS corrupt absolutely? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401 "2007-06-09T21:18:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/21 "2007-06-10T15:30:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] Not even kinda. For 20 years after we won independence the United States of America was a pathetic fragile child… America is the way it is because of these selfless precious few. I love history and if I were to teach American history I’d make this two decade period my semester class. It was/is\*\* VITAL\*\* to how democracy is created. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but those “selfless precious few” hated democracy with a passion, equally if not more, as corrupt tyrannical dictators and went to great lengths to avoid it, the whole constitution and separation of powers, electoral college, independent judiciary, and on and on is constructed for this reason. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/22 "2007-06-10T16:28:41Z")
[QUOTE=Common Tater] Yeah, but those “selfless precious few” hated democracy with a passion, equally if not more, as corrupt tyrannical dictators and went to great lengths to avoid it, the whole constitution and separation of powers, electoral college, independent judiciary, and on and on is constructed for this reason. [/QUOTE] What’s wrong with any of those things? The only questionable thing I can think of is the electoral college, and even that made sense at the time. How are they an example of power corrupting? They show that the founders didn’t want a pure democracy but who does? It would be a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/23 "2007-06-10T16:30:00Z")
Francisco Franco although a fascist and was pretty much determined to hang on to power he did’nt go to extremes with his authority. He groomed the present king of Spain, Juan Carlos, knowing that when he (Franco) died the country would revert to a Monarchy and it would be in good hands. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/24 "2007-06-10T20:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Francisco Franco although a fascist and was pretty much determined to hang on to power he did’nt go to extremes with his authority. [/QUOTE] I wonder if **Nava** would agree? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/25 "2007-06-10T20:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Francisco Franco although a fascist and was pretty much determined to hang on to power he did’nt go to extremes with his authority. He groomed the present king of Spain, Juan Carlos, knowing that when he (Franco) died the country would revert to a Monarchy and it would be in good hands. [/QUOTE] That is after the fact reasoning, Franco expected the King to follow his footsteps, He already knew that some secret and open surveys showed that the socialists would be a big force in a general election. And it is hard to go to extremes when at the beginning Franco virtually killed all opposition. Nevertheless many groups had their language and culture repressed during Franco’s regime. What I do remember is that the King was being taught by Franco an the elite to follow a similar path. Quoting Wikipedia because this time it is sourced and it fits what I remember from reading the history: > **[Spanish transition to democracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democracy)** > > The Spanish transition to democracy, known in Spain as la Transición (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}IPA: \[la tɾansiˈθjon\]; 'the Transition') or la Transición española ('the Spanish Transition'), officially the Spanish State from 1975 to 1978 and Kingdom of Spain thereafter, was a period of modern Spanish history encompassing the re... > [@](#): > > The Spanish transition to democracy or new Bourbon restoration was the era when Spain moved from the dictatorship of Francisco Franco to a liberal democratic state. The transition is usually said to have begun with Franco’s death on November 20, 1975, while its completion has been variously said to be marked by the Spanish Constitution of 1978, the failure of Antonio Tejero’s attempted coup on February 23, 1981, or the electoral victory of the socialist PSOE on October 28, 1982. > [@](#): > > Nonetheless, the transition was not easy. The specter of the Civil War (1936-1939) still haunted Spain. Francoists on the extreme right had considerable support within the Spanish Army, and extreme radicals of the left distrusted a king who owed his position to Franco. > > The realization of the democratic project required that the leftist opposition restrain its own most radical elements from provocations and that the army refrain from intervening in the political process on behalf of Francoist elements within the existing government. > > **Juan Carlos began his reign without leaving the confines of Franco’s legal system. As such, he swore fidelity to the Principles of the Movimiento Nacional, the sole legal party of the Franco era; took possession of the crown before the Francoist Cortes Generales; and respected the Ley Orgánica del Estado (Organic Law of the State) for the appointment of his first head of government. Only in his speech before the Cortes did he show the beginning of the transformation of the Spanish political system**. What I do remember is that it was the King deciding not to support the coup what surprised many, but by then it was clear that change was coming, via violence or democracy, even a King can see the writing on the wall. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/26 "2007-06-11T04:08:41Z")
[QUOTE=Shamozzle] By no means am I personally qualified to run or control anything, but I think if I became dictator I really would skip all of the palatial indulgence and I’d go straight into surrounding myself with the greatest minds in the nation so we could figure out how to best run the country. Or, are those the famous last words of \*every \*dictator before their downward spiral into twisted excess? [/QUOTE] A country is generally a big thing, and any government is going to have thousands (at least) of bureaucrats, local administrators, police chiefs, military officers, and so forth. Regardless of how pure-hearted you are, it’s naive to believe that you could pick only pure-hearted people to hold all these thousands of positions. No matter how hard you tried, many of these people would either start out corrupt or become corrupted and misuse their authority. Furthermore, there’s no way that you alone could monitor every one of these thousands and efficiently replace of the bad eggs with good people. Democracy gives the people a fighting chance at removing corrupt government officials at every level, from the top to the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/27 "2007-06-11T11:14:07Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] While he never became dictator or even close, Che Guevera walked away from a position with authority within “the system” which could have led to great things to instead be a poor fighter again, this time in other countries. I don’t like a whole lot about him and his methods, but that small part earns a bit of respect from me. [/QUOTE] I too appreciate Guevara (and the Castros too on very limited information.) A story you might like, probably apocryphal, is that Castro, shortly after the revolution asked the assembled gathering "who here is an “econ9omist?” Guevara raised his hand and thus became the economic director of the fledgling state. Guevara is supposed to have said “economist?” I thought you said “communist.” (I would guess that Castro was familiar with his background but who knows, not me.) On the other issue how about Tito? His people always seemed to be fond of him. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/28 "2007-06-11T11:23:02Z")
[QUOTE=Shamozzle] **Does absolute power ALWAYS corrupt absolutely?** [/QUOTE] Of course not. You’re looking at reality from an ‘Alice Through the Looking Glass’ point of view. In the real world, those who seek power tend to be corrupt. Those who seek absolute power tend to be absloutely corrupt. When you have accepted this alternative view of reality, **Shamozzle** , you will have learned. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/29 "2007-06-11T11:25:01Z")
simon bolivar? ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/30 "2007-06-11T11:37:32Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] While he never became dictator or even close, Che Guevera walked away from a position with authority within “the system” which could have led to great things to instead be a poor fighter again, this time in other countries. I don’t like a whole lot about him and his methods, but that small part earns a bit of respect from me. [/QUOTE] I suppose it depends on who you rely on as an unimpeachable source of information. By ‘position of authority’, perhaps you mean your hero, Che, performing the kind of stuff described in this article? [Che Guevara: Assassin and Bumbler](http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4450) > [@](#): > > “To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary,” Carroll would have heard from the chief executioner, named Ernesto “Che” Guevara. “These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon (The Wall)!” > [@](#): > > Cuba was a nation of 6.5 million in 1959. Within three months in power, Castro and Che had shamed the Nazi prewar incarceration and murder rate. One defector claims that Che signed 500 death warrants, another says over 600. Cuban journalist Luis Ortega, who knew Che as early as 1954, writes in his book “Yo Soy El Che!” that Guevara sent 1,897 men to the firing squad. In his book “Che Guevara: A Biography,” Daniel James writes that Che himself admitted to ordering “several thousand” executions during the first few years of the Castro regime. > [@](#): > > So the scope of the mass murder is unclear. So the exact number of widows and orphans is in dispute. So the number of gagged and blindfolded men who Che sent – without trials – to be bound to a stake and blown apart by bullets runs from the hundreds to the thousands. > But the mass executioner gets a standing ovation by the same people in the U.S who oppose capitol punishment! Is there a psychiatrist in the house?! > The first three months of the Cuban Revolution saw 568 firing squad executions. Even the New York Times admits it. The preceding “trials” shocked and nauseated all who witnessed them. They were shameless farces, sickening charades. Ask Barry Farber. He was there. Oh, what the hell. He’s a working class hero, after all. His heart was in the right place. :rolleyes: He was only doing it all for freedom, liberty and justice. 😃 Not so, compadre? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/31 "2007-06-11T11:40:56Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Of course not. You’re looking at reality from an ‘Alice Through the Looking Glass’ point of view. In the real world, those who seek power tend to be corrupt. Those who seek absolute power tend to be absloutely corrupt. When you have accepted this alternative view of reality, **Shamozzle** , you will have learned. 🆒 [/QUOTE] I actually wanted to make the same point. I guess there have been a few cases where near-absolute power suddenly fell into the hands of somebody who hadn’t actively sought it (e.g., the Emperor Claudius), but usually it came through either an anticipated succession or a ruthless campaign. In the modern U.S., I don’t see how you could run a successful presidential campaign while remaining completely honest, so a little corruption is required from the start. And I’d bet that that current President has always held his stated view that being a leader means you don’t have to explain what you do. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/32 "2007-06-11T12:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Oh, what the hell. He’s a working class hero, after all. His heart was in the right place. :rolleyes: He was only doing it all for freedom, liberty and justice. 😃 Not so, compadre? 🙂 [/QUOTE] Why does this always happen with Che Guevara, specifically? It was the same thing when **Bricker** wrote his Staff Report on him. **WhyNot** clearly said she didn’t like him, but she had to give him credit for this tiny little thing. Somehow you turn that into “Che Guevara was a great human being deserving of a million blowjobs”. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/33 "2007-06-11T12:49:31Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Why does this always happen with Che Guevara, specifically? It was the same thing when **Bricker** wrote his Staff Report on him. **WhyNot** clearly said she didn’t like him, but she had to give him credit for this tiny little thing. Somehow you turn that into “Che Guevara was a great human being deserving of a million blowjobs”. [/QUOTE] I’m astounded. 😕 Did you read my post? Pliz look up ‘irony’. Find yr own link. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/34 "2007-06-11T12:56:35Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] I’m astounded. 😕 Did you read my post? Pliz look up ‘irony’. Find yr own link. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I noticed the irony. I would have even without the dozen emoticons. My point was that **WhyNot** said “I don’t like him, but this little thing I must give him credit for” and you responded as if _she_ had said “He’s absolutely wonderful”. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/35 "2007-06-11T13:08:23Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] I noticed the irony. I would have even without the dozen emoticons. My point was that **WhyNot** said “I don’t like him, but this little thing I must give him credit for” and you responded as if _she_ had said “He’s absolutely wonderful”. [/QUOTE] Well, let’s have another look at what **WhyNot** actually said. 🙂 > [@](#): > > While he never became dictator or even close, Che Guevera walked away from a position with authority within “the system” which could have led to great things to instead be a poor fighter again, this time in other countries. I don’t like a whole lot about him and his methods, but that small part earns a bit of respect from me. If you cannot see the hero worship of that murderous thug, Che Guevara, that are contained in those comments by **WhyNot** then we don’t really have much to discuss. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/36 "2007-06-11T13:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If you cannot see the hero worship of that murderous thug, Che Guevara, that are contained in those comments by **WhyNot** then we don’t really have much to discuss. [/QUOTE] If you can read the words “I don’t like a whole lot about him and his methods” and see hero worship, then we do indeed not have much to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/37 "2007-06-11T13:20:28Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] If you can read the words “I don’t like a whole lot about him and his methods” and see hero worship, then we do indeed not have much to discuss. [/QUOTE] And if you can read the words: > [@WhyNot](#): > > but that small part earns a bit of respect from me. and not see admiration for that murderous thug, then you’re right. We don’t have much to discuss. 🙂 But who cares. Let **WhyNot** tell us both how much he admires that murderous thug when he visits the SDMB again. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/38 "2007-06-11T14:03:20Z")
Seriously, what the fuck, man? I don’t know how I could have been more clear than “I don’t like a whole lot about him and his methods”. So I’ll just have to conclude that your reading comprehension skills are incredibly lacking. I have not one iota of hero worship for Guevera, and am rather amused and filled with contempt by the young neohippie types (many of whom are my friends) who wear t-shirts and display flags with his picture on them without really knowing who he is. Switch to decaf, seriously. When you froth and foam, it makes people not listen to you. Admitting your opponents might have some admirable qualities is a sign that you’re a rational human being capable of reason; no one is completely and utterly contemptible, and to suggest otherwise means you’ve been hoodwinked and are not a source of logic or reasoned debate. Even Hilter was a master of rhetoric and a skilled motivational speaker. Go on, tell me I’m a nazi now. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/39 "2007-06-11T14:18:09Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] and not see admiration [/QUOTE] “A bit of respect” **!=** “admiration” or “hero worship.” Stop yanking our chains and quit hijacking the thread to indulge your narrow biases. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401/40 "2007-06-11T15:21:40Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] While he never became dictator or even close, Che Guevera walked away from a position with authority within “the system” which could have led to great things to instead be a poor fighter again, this time in other countries. I don’t like a whole lot about him and his methods, but that small part earns a bit of respect from me. [/QUOTE] I should point out that Guevara leaving Cuba was not necessarily a voluntary move. Around that time Castro was purging his government of anyone he saw as a potential threat, and while Guevara was not particularly popular he did have a very loyal military following. Guevara likely saw himself as in danger and left Cuba as a result. Proof of this was when Fidel made public the letter that Guevara had written, just in case he was caught. The letter was not meant to be made public, and by releasing it Fidel essentially exiled Guevara. So no, Guevara did no leave to be a poor fighter, he left to be a live fighter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-absolute-power-always-corrupt-absolutely/407401.md?page=3)