# Does acupuncture really work? If so, how? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704 "2005-02-12T03:57:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/1 "2005-02-12T03:57:41Z")
The theory of Chinese acupuncture is based on a purported life-force called “chi” or “qi.” The needles, inserted into certain “channels,” are supposed to adjust the flow of qi through the body. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture) But there is absolutely no hard scientific evidence that qi even exists, nor that these channels exist. (I ran a GQ thread on that a couple of years ago: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=167264.)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=167264.)) So how does acupuncture really work? Or does it? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/2 "2005-02-12T04:34:06Z")
The NIH has an official Consensus Paper on it. Short version: yes, it helps for some things. [http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107\_statement.htm#2\_1.\_What](http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm#2_1._What) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/3 "2005-02-12T04:57:25Z")
Placebo. Possibly some endorphins. That’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/4 "2005-02-12T05:06:53Z")
The Perfect Master speaks: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html) > [@](#): > > But you don’t have to read much in the medical journals to think, these guys have got to be kidding. In July 1999 the British Medical Journal published an extensive review of Chinese research on “traditional Chinese medicine” (which also includes herbal and other techniques) and found numerous problems, including poor controls, inadequate protection against bias, etc. The most revealing datum was a chart showing the results of 49 trials of acupuncture in the treatment of stroke. Normally in such a chart you’d see a bell-curve distribution, with a few data points at the far ends (indicating the treatment was either extremely effective or extremely ineffective) but most in the middle. In fact the chart shows half a bell–a few trials showed acupuncture was very effective, the largest number showed it was slightly effective, and almost none showed it was ineffective. Obvious conclusion: researchers in China only publish positive results. > > … > > Some of acupuncture’s defenders recognize its inadequacies. “Thirty years of active acupuncture research have failed to unequivocally demonstrate its clinical efficacy,” concedes a 1999 paper in the American Journal of Acupuncture. Shall we go back to Tylenol, then? Not at all. “Acupuncture and Chinese traditional medicine are based on a unique philosophical model, and the instruments of biomedical research may be inadequate and inappropriate,” the paper concludes. Translation: Don’t blame acupuncture, blame the test. These guys can rationalize all they like, but I bet when they go in for a root canal the only needle they want to see is a shot of novocaine. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/5 "2005-02-12T19:17:01Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#): > > The NIH has an official Consensus Paper on it. Short version: yes, it helps for some things. > > [http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107\_statement.htm#2\_1.\_What](http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm#2_1._What) Funny, I just posted a link about this in another acupuncture thread. this past December, they went a lot further than just believeing it must work for some things: [Acupuncture and Osteoarthritis of the Knee: Press Release, December 20th, 2004](http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/acu-osteo.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/6 "2005-02-12T19:48:10Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#): > > Funny, I just posted a link about this in another acupuncture thread. this past December, they went a lot further than just believeing it must work for some things: > > [Acupuncture and Osteoarthritis of the Knee: Press Release, December 20th, 2004](http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/acu-osteo.htm) Your link goes to an “alternative healing” website and the “study” was funded by the same organization. This is like linking to a creationist press release to show “evidence” of Noah’s Ark. Even after reading the press release I still don’t see anything which goes beyond either placebo or a possible release of endorphins. Self-reported pain relief is not exactly the easiest thing to quantify. And there are also other studies where acupuncture doesn’t do crap. The most it can ever do is produce some subjective reports of pain relief. It never actually cures anything. ---
**Author:** ![Jaug1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@Jaug1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaug1)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/7 "2005-02-12T20:14:18Z")
I have used acupuncture for my asthma and it has truly been a life saver. Usually when I get sick, my lung capacity goes down to about 35-40%. After using acupuncture, while sick, my lung capacity is 98%. I’m not quite sure about the mechanics of it, but I believe it has something to do with activating certain pressure points and increasing circulation through those points, leading to a healthier interior body. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/8 "2005-02-12T20:18:41Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Your link goes to an “alternative healing” website and the “study” was funded by the same organization. From the Link, which is an NIH site, FYI: > [@](#): > > This landmark study was funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) and the National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases (NIAMS), both components of the National Institutes of Health. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/9 "2005-02-12T20:31:35Z")
Any involvement by an “alternative healing” organization makes me go :dubious: But even if we accept the study, the most it shows is some some subjective self-reports of pain relief. Placebo effects and endorphin release can explain that easily. It does not actually verify anything about the amorphous theory of “Ch’i” upon which acupunture is based. ---
**Author:** ![jester21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed655f/32.png) [@jester21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jester21)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/10 "2005-02-12T20:36:30Z")
Anecdotal story: I went to an acupunturist for a multitude of pains (neck, back, knee, and wrists) with no real expectations of what, if any, good it would do (especially to my wallet). unscientific results, as observed by me: Neck: No help. Back: No help. knee: No help. Wrists: marked decrease in pain and discomfort. And a temporary ceasation in the need to ‘pop’ them all the time. So, IMHO, it _could_ work. But don’t expect miracles. ---
**Author:** ![jeffh3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/11 "2005-02-12T23:42:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Any involvement by an “alternative healing” organization makes me go :dubious: > > But even if we accept the study, the most it shows is some some subjective self-reports of pain relief. Placebo effects and endorphin release can explain that easily. It does not actually verify anything about the amorphous theory of “Ch’i” upon which acupunture is based. While in general this is most likely a bogus method in terms of any real science behind it, it may be one of those things that works in some cases spite of itself. My knee jerk reaction was certainly to laugh off acupuncture, but it sounds like from [http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/1...t.htm#2\_1.\_What](http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/1...t.htm#2_1._What) given by \*\*Duck Duck Goose \*\* early in this thread shows that it appeared useful in some cases. It is my understanding that most studies have shown it does produce a real physiological response, but the problem is that the results are unpredicable. Certainly the concept of working with chi is most likely bogus. How can one even develop techniques or a map of something that no one can see. This would be akin to somone claiming to getting a “soul massage” that makes them feel oh so much better. I think that we can hazard an educated guess that it is actually has to do with the bodies stimulated nerves and interactions that aren’t quite clear. It appears that acupressure, which has its orginal roots from acupuncture, is slowly becoming more widely accepted as a medically feasable alternative by some physicans, when other methods have failed for pain management. While there is much more science involved with actual technics and practices, these methods still suffer from its roots in acupucture which is evidenced in the beliefs of energy blockages causing some of the issues it resolves. The problem with all methods like this is lack of scientific understanding and that these clients need real medical advice to diagnose and treat their symptoms/disease. It may work well as a last resort effort for pain that has been unsuccessfully treated by physicans, but should not be used in any way in place of a qualified physician. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/12 "2005-02-12T23:59:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Any involvement by an “alternative healing” organization makes me go :dubious: > > But even if we accept the study, the most it shows is some some subjective self-reports of pain relief. Placebo effects and endorphin release can explain that easily. It does not actually verify anything about the amorphous theory of “Ch’i” upon which acupunture is based. I’m surprised at you, **DtC**. Surely you see that we must separate the observable effect (the cessation or reduction of pain due to acupuncture treatment) from the model put forth to explain it (the notion of Ch’i). I personally don’t currently subscribe to the notion of Ch’i nor the idea that acupuncture is some sort of cure-all. Its primary claim is that it reduces pain, and this study shows some good evidence that it does indeed do just that, at least for this particular type of patient. From the [Abstract of the Publshed Study in the Annals of Internal Medicine:](http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/141/12/901?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=acupuncture&searchid=1108252713904_4032&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=annintmed) > [@](#): > > Results: Participants in the true acupuncture group experienced greater improvement in WOMAC function scores than the sham acupuncture group at 8 weeks (mean difference, –2.9 [95% CI, –5.0 to –0.8]; P = 0.01) but not in WOMAC pain score (mean difference, –0.5 [CI, –1.2 to 0.2]; P = 0.18) or the patient global assessment (mean difference, 0.16 [CI, –0.02 to 0.34]; P \> 0.2). At 26 weeks, the true acupuncture group experienced significantly greater improvement than the sham group in the WOMAC function score (mean difference, –2.5 [CI, –4.7 to –0.4]; P = 0.01), WOMAC pain score (mean difference, –0.87 [CI, –1.58 to –0.16]😜 = 0.003), and patient global assessment (mean difference, 0.26 [CI, 0.07 to 0.45]; P = 0.02). From the [Press Release of the Study](http://nccam.nih.gov/news/2004/acu-osteo/pressrelease.htm): > [@](#): > > During the course of the study, led by Brian M. Berman, M.D., Director of the Center for Integrative Medicine and Professor of Family Medicine at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland, 190 patients received true acupuncture and 191 patients received sham acupuncture for 24 treatment sessions over 26 weeks. Sham acupuncture is a procedure designed to prevent patients from being able to detect if needles are actually inserted at treatment points. In both the sham and true acupuncture procedures, a screen prevented patients from seeing the knee treatment area and learning which treatment they received. In the education control group, 189 participants attended six, 2-hour group sessions over 12 weeks based on the Arthritis Foundation’s Arthritis Self-Help Course, a proven, effective model. This is a sound study, obviously designed to reduce pollution by the placebo effect. It was not designed to test the existence of Ch’i, but to test whether acupuncture actually does anything. Perhaps it is realted to endorphin release, which is of course a pain reliever. Most medicinal pain relievers don’t actually cure the cause of pain either, but mask it by endorphins or other mechanisms. And frankly, if I had some sort of chronic pain, and if acupuncture were just as effective as the latest offering from Pfizer et. al., and therefore the only thing left to choose between was the likely side effects, I’d take “dismissive comments from skeptical acquaintances” over “anal leakage” any day… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/13 "2005-02-13T00:46:32Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#): > > I’m surprised at you, **DtC**. > > Surely you see that we must separate the observable effect (the cessation or reduction of pain due to acupuncture treatment) from the model put forth to explain it (the notion of Ch’i). This I agree with. I am amenable to evidence that some acupuncture treatments seem to have an incidental effect of (apparently non-placebo) pain relief, although the reason is unknown. What I am rejecting is the whole Ch’i thing or that acupuncture, as a whole, really amounts to any kind of real scientifically validated theory of treatment. When it works, it works unpredictably, almost accidentally, just like some aspects of shamanistic medicine or “witch doctoring” may have some real effect (herbal remedies, for instance) but that doesn’t mean that any spirits or magic is involved. Fiddling around, poking people with pins seems to have some goofy effects on their nervous systems. That’s about as far as I’m willing to go with acupuncture. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/14 "2005-02-14T00:02:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Does acupuncture really work? If so, how? Question back at ya, do we have to know how something works for it to work? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/15 "2005-02-14T00:33:45Z")
I’m amazed by the press that acupuncture receives. the fact is, western physicians have been experimenting with it since the days of Dr. Paul Dudley White (President Eisenhower’s personal physician). My point is this: if it worked, then why would Chinese hospitals still be using anesthesia? Face it, acupuncture wopuld win (over anesthesia) hands down!: -it has no side effects -it cannot kill the recipient (via overdose) -it has no residual bad effects So,why isn’t it in use? (Answer) :It doesn’t work! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/16 "2005-02-14T04:44:48Z")
[www.pathguy.com](http://www.pathguy.com) This site is run by an autopsy pathologist, who is, I guess, an open-minded skeptic. The dude does his homework. He checked out a number of studies, some double-blind (controlled by having the practitioner needle fake points), some not so, and found that acupuncture is, in fact, effective for a variety of illnesses, and can be as effective as a local anesthetic for certain types of surgery (dental surgeries were most commonly studied). It is not effective for everything- like “traditional” Western medicine, it is not a cure-all, and is not effective in 100% of all cases, but apparently, there is something more than a placebo effect going on here. As to the “qi” issue… Well, OK, it works, but we don’t know why it works, but just because there is no scientific evidence for the existence of qi (which may mean nothing more than we haven’t figured out how to measure it yet) doesn’t mean we should dismiss the therapy. And if there is no such thing as qi, well, that just means that the ancient Chinese were wrong about why acupuncture works. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/17 "2005-02-14T04:58:42Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > As to the “qi” issue… (which may mean nothing more than we haven’t figured out how to measure it yet) Then how do practitioners know where the qi channels run, or that it even exists? How do they test that they have effectively and correctly redirected it, or whatever they are claiming to do? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/18 "2005-02-14T06:02:39Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Then how do practitioners know where the qi channels run, or that it even exists? Centuries of practitioners using their hands, documenting what worked, and what didn’t, and writing down their findings, and mapping the points as they found them. Acupuncture has been around for about 4,000 years, and the massage modality it is based on, probably a couple of thousand years longer than that. Also, I can tell you from personal experience that the points, and in a few individuals, even the entire meridians, can be physically felt. The points feel like a little hollow, sort of like a dip in the road. Marge Simpson would no doubt like to have signs posted at each one. > [@](#): > > How do they test that they have effectively and correctly redirected it, or whatever they are claiming to do? Well, if working a particular point has the desired effect on the corresponding area of the body, I’d say that would be a pretty fair indication that they have correctly redirected it, or whatever they are claiming to do. I’m a licensed massage therapist, and I took a class in shiatsu as part of my training. I also had a doctor many years ago who was trained in both Western and Eastern medicine who taught me the bare-bones basics of Korean hand acupuncture (think reflexology with a paper clip). When I work the point in the fleshy pad between a coworker’s thumb and forefinger, and her period cramps go away, I would say it’s a pretty safe bet that I’ve worked a point along a meridian that somehow wound its way into her lower abdomen. When my supervisor of many years past tried to lift a box that was too heavy for him and aggravated an old shoulder injury and his entire arm went numb, and I grabbed a paper clip and worked the point corresponding to the injured shoulder, and the pain in the shoulder and numbness in the arm below it went away, well, hell, I don’t know how it worked, but my Type A workaholic boss was very happy not to miss most of a days work. Ditto for the stripper with an ulcer who just couldn’t bring herself to stop drinking, and as a consequence managed to all but double herself over with pain. I begged the bartender for a paperclip, worked the point in her hand that corresponded to her stomach, and within five minutes, she was up and dancing again. She looked at me and said, “I don’t know what you’re doing, but it’s working.” These days, I’d be inclined to use my fingers rather than a paperclip, but hell, whatever gets the job done. Bottom line, I really don’t know why acupuncture/acupressure/shiatsu works, but until science figures out just exactly what the mechanism is that makes it work, I’ll just call it qi. It’s better than “Hey, you!” Maybe later, I’ll tell you about the time in student clinic when I got bitch-slapped by a trigger point I found inside a pressure point. Now, _that_ was a freaky experience. ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/19 "2005-03-30T14:20:54Z")
An [article](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2005/03/22/acupuncture_has_won_medical_acceptance/) in the Boston Globe claims there is very good evidence not only for acupuncture, but also for the existance of meridians. As a skeptical guy, I’m a bit hesitant to believe. After all, aren’t there several systems of acupuncture? If so, which one was most accurate? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704/20 "2005-03-30T14:36:27Z")
The word ‘chi’ is used to describe more than one concept. This has increased the level of confusion about the issue. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-acupuncture-really-work-if-so-how/289704.md?page=2)