# Does Age Kill Rock and Roll Creativity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 28, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586 "2013-02-28T02:52:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/21 "2013-02-28T13:14:48Z")
Let’s assume the opposite: that musical creativity does not diminish with age. Then, we can assume that the greatness of albums will be randomly distributed throughout the artist’s career. The ones that have a really crappy debut album, purely by chance, will tend to not become famous, or drop out altogether from the musical scene. Whereas the ones that happened to reach their creative peak early, again, purely by chance in my hypothetical, did stick around, and then their later stuff is much worse. Only natural, because Sturgeon’s Law says that most of any one type of music is crap. So pure randomness is consistent with the apparent lack of creativity of artists with age. I don’t think it’s the whole explanation, but I do think it’s some of it. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/22 "2013-02-28T13:37:55Z")
> [@irritant](#): > > You know, I think you have this backwards: Bon Jovi was always lightweight pop, but back in the 80’s you were just too drunk to notice 🙂 I was drunk, but I noticed. Also noticed how my girlfriends would get all hot and bothered over him, Samboro, or both. However, as I’m a prog rock fan, feel free to factor that into evaluating my opinion on other bands. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/23 "2013-02-28T14:43:24Z")
I believe age kills all creativity… not just rock and roll creativity. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/24 "2013-02-28T15:12:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think part of it is that you (and the bands) get older. Music that seems awesome to you when you are 15, 18 or 22 can seem hopelessly cheesy and dated a few years later. And it’s hard for the bands to keep singing to the kids when they are in their 40s and 50s and beyond. > > Take Bon Jovi for example. He was cutting edge bad ass rock we used to listen to when we were getting drunk and making out with chicks at some 80s suburban house party in high school (or at least planning to). Now at best he’s adult contemporary light rock my mom listens to. _pouts_ I still like Guns & Roses. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/25 "2013-02-28T15:26:20Z")
I think for the most part, the “early stuff” tends to be better because the band is dealing with all their best ideas, and they’re committed to sounding a certain way. Once you’ve delivered up your best, it’s tough to create something new that doesn’t sound like you’re ripping off your old songs. That’s when the experimentation and the side projects start. I’d say it’s rare for a band to stick together long enough to become more accomplished musicians together and release their best album later in their careers. It helps if you start out in something simple. If you’re playing snotty three-chord punk, things can only improve from there. ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/26 "2013-02-28T15:35:30Z")
Depends on the artist too. Bearing in mind the caveat that rock and roll is not strictly rock, Frank Zappa produced/released over 60 albums in a 27 year recording career, including two in the year of his death (one new original material) at age 53. I noticed a TV credit recently for Jay Ferguson as composer or in charge of music for some show. COuld it be I wondered? Other old farts will know who I mean - Jay Ferguson was a member and somg-writer for the way cool 60s band Spirit. Wrote a top 10 hit in 1968 (many other terrific songs)and is producing catchy TV themes in the 2010s. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/27 "2013-02-28T15:38:53Z")
\*\*Is this unique to rock and roll? Or even to music? I think that, in MOST fields of art and entertainment, people tend to do their best work when they’re young. Yes, there are Franz Joseph Haydns still writing great symphonies in their sixties and P.G. Wodehouses still writing entertaining books in their eighties, but are they typical? I don’t think so. Can’t we all think of writers who came out with one brilliant novel early in their careers, and never wrote anything nearly as good afterward? To use one example, James T. Farrell completed his brilliant \*\*\*Studs Lonigan \*\*\* trilogy at the age of 31, and never came close to matching that achievement again. Arthur Miller, one of America’s greatest playwrights, lived 90 years, and was writing to the very end… but he didn’t have any successful plays in the USA after 1955, when he completed **A View From the Bridge**. Once he hit 40, Arthur Miller was pretty much a has-been. How many great songs did Burt Bacharach write after 1971? What did Truman Capote write of any merit after _ **In Cold Blood** _? MOST creative artists are only at their peak for a relatively short time. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/28 "2013-02-28T16:08:54Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > I have seen the Moody Blues live many times. And they never have anything new to perform. It is like their creative juices ran dry. Even if they’ve been recording new stuff all along (which they mostly haven’t; they’ve only put out 3 new albums in the past 22 years), older acts like the Blues seem to generally find that most of the audience at their concerts want to hear their old stuff. They can probably get away with mixing a new song or two into the playlist, but that’s probably the limit. Artists like Kate Bush or Todd Rundgren, as **gaffa** noted, are probably the exceptions to the rule, in that they seem to have a fan base who’s more willing to move with the artist into new areas. I do think that it’s probably harder to write good rock music when you’re no longer a edgy, struggling 20-something. Success leads to being comfortable and (maybe) having a family, and the inspiration for your music changes. ---
**Author:** ![President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/President_Johnny_Gentle)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/29 "2013-02-28T16:31:35Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > Age works against physicist as well. Many feel that their best work is done in their 20’s and 30’s. This feeling was extensive enough in mathematics that the traditional top prize in the field, the Fields Medal, is not awarded to anyone over the age of 40. This is made even worse by the fact that the prize is only awarded once every four years. ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/30 "2013-02-28T16:47:20Z")
I think it’s mostly due to age, but varies between individuals. It’s like John Cougar once sang, “They say life goes on, long after the thrill of living is gone.” And for most people their creative years, when they are young and most excited about life, are their best. But, there are always exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/31 "2013-02-28T18:18:36Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Artists like Kate Bush or Todd Rundgren, as **gaffa** noted, are probably the exceptions to the rule, in that they seem to have a fan base who’s more willing to move with the artist into new areas. I believe most folks’ musical tastes are pretty well established by the time they are 18. They may discover new artists, but the genres they like tend to be set - a hard rock fan may discover new hard rock bands, or move slightly afield to hybrids of their preferred genres, but it’s rare that they’ll discover a new one. Todd keeps his fans on their toes by moving into different genres, and he’s lost a few of them along the way. A lot of them disliked his exploration of rap with _[No World Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_World_Order)_ and _[The Individualist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Individualist)_, while I didn’t care for the hard rock of _[Arena](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_%28Todd_Rundgren_album%29)_. > [@](#): > > I do think that it’s probably harder to write good rock music when you’re no longer a edgy, struggling 20-something. Success leads to being comfortable and (maybe) having a family, and the inspiration for your music changes. I’ve been told that the hardest song to write is a _requited_ love song. “I love you, we’re perfectly happy…” doesn’t give the same possibilities as “Why don’t you love me?”. The _Sky of Honey_ disc of Kate’s double album _[Aerial](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_%28album%29)_ is an attempt to do that. It’s a album length song cycle about one perfect day of joy and contentment. Maybe that’s why it took her twelve years to release it. ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/32 "2013-02-28T18:21:56Z")
Outside of composition, I have found that most musicians become more and more technically adept as they age until they actually physically break down. An instrumentalist with 45 years of playing behind him is just better than one who has only been playing for 15, ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/33 "2013-02-28T19:14:20Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > Outside of composition, I have found that most musicians become more and more technically adept as they age until they actually physically break down. > > An instrumentalist with 45 years of playing behind him is just better than one who has only been playing for 15, Very true. I’ve had musicians who I would have assumed would be lightweights impress me. Back in 2001, I saw a concert called _[A Walk Down Abbey Road](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Walk_Down_Abbey_Road)_ that featured Todd and a bunch of musicians doing two sets, the first of their “hits” and the second of Beatles tunes. The real revelation of the show was [David Pack of _Ambrosia_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pack). He’d had hits with the soft rock songs _How Much I Feel_ and _Biggest Part Of Me_, but it turns out that he is a hell of a guitarist and can rock with the best of them, and yeah…40+ years of playing the guitar pays off. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/34 "2013-02-28T19:26:55Z")
Heh, I saw the Walk Down Abbey Road tour as well. An idiot sitting behind me remarked to his date that “That Rundgren guy…he doesn’t really belong on stage with the rest of them, what has he ever done?” You can bet I gave him a piece of my mind! It turned out that it was Todd’s birthday that night and the crowd (except for the guy behind me) offered up a rousing version of Happy Birthday. I think lot of the great rock songs have been written by, essential, teenagers. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/35 "2013-02-28T19:30:53Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > You may interpret it that way, but it could also be the artist or band trying new things. It seems to me that _Rush_ fans have pretty much demanded that _Rush_ continue to sound like _Rush_. > > I’m not attacking you, but that sounds like just another way to demanding that a band keeps churning out songs in the same style. Post snipped. Does 2112 have the same style as Signals\*? Is “Losing It” in the same style as “The Temples of Syrinx”? Nope. There are major changes in tone, instrumentation, etc. Rush has changed a ton through out their career. However, the essential Rushness stays the same. Rush, whether it is 2112, Moving Pictures or Test for Echo, always sounds like Rush. Whether it is guitar driven or keyboard driven, heavy or light, it sounds like Rush. There are other bands/musicians who are constant this way. I can recognize a new Steve Morse song almost instantly even though he covers an extremely wide range of music. Somehow, whatever it is that makes Steve Morse sound the like Steve Morse, always comes through. Most of the bands I like tend to be this way and most tend to be progressive and change quite a bit. Changing styles but keeping the distinctive aspects that define an artist is hard. Some bands can do it but others start to sound like someone else. Once that distinctiveness is lost it all starts merging into the rest of the genre. Slee \*Picked because they are two of my favorite Rush albums. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/36 "2013-02-28T19:36:37Z")
I started pondering this phenomenon just last week (after hearing a recent Paul McCartney tune on the radio, in fact). He (with Lennon) was a musical genius who seemed able to churn out pop masterpiece after pop masterpiece at will. I don’t think he has produced _anything_ in the last couple of decades that would compare with any of dozens of his early songs. Then I considered which musicians remain fresh into the golden years of their career. I struggled with this thought and could only name a few semi-possibilities (Paul Simon, Elvis Costello, David Byrne). Whoa, hold the phone. Just thought of one (IMHO): Bob Dylan. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/37 "2013-02-28T20:30:51Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Then I considered which musicians remain fresh into the golden years of their career. I struggled with this thought and could only name a few semi-possibilities (Paul Simon, Elvis Costello, David Byrne). > > Whoa, hold the phone. Just thought of one (IMHO): Bob Dylan. Can’t speak to his most recent work, but I think Neil Young stayed surprisingly relevant far beyond most of his contemporaries. Being embraced by a lot of the noisier post-punk bands in the 1980’s and '90’s didn’t hurt. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/38 "2013-02-28T21:01:46Z")
Also keep in mind that general tastes in music change over time as well. The 90s marked a transition away from pre 1991 bombastic guitar rock into more subdued and introspective “alternative” rock. The 2000s saw a lot of emo, pop-punk and indie garage bands. And these days, there is hardly any rock anymore. > [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > Given that they were contemporaries of Slayer, I cannot stress enough how untrue this statement is. Fair enough. I meant “cutting edge bad ass rock” in a bunch of high school jocks driving around in the Camaro sense. Not the angry kid who dressed all in black skulls and ripped denim like an extra from River’s Edge and smelled like Marlboros sense. Interestingly of the “big 4” 80s thrash metal bands (Metallica, Antrax, Megadeth and Slayer), Metallica was the only one that seemed to make the crossover into pop. But I also remember that caused a lot of controversy with their core fan base. > [@tullsterx](#): > > It’s like John Cougar once sang… Um…I think you mean John Cougar Mellencamp…or John Mellencamp…or possibly Johnny Cougar. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/39 "2013-02-28T21:16:17Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Then I considered which musicians remain fresh into the golden years of their career. I struggled with this thought and could only name a few semi-possibilities (Paul Simon, Elvis Costello, David Byrne). > > Whoa, hold the phone. Just thought of one (IMHO): Bob Dylan. Good call on Elvis Costello. Add Leonard Cohen and Tom Waits. And although he didn’t live to be as old as those guys, Frank Zappa was doing some of his greatest work at the end of his career. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586/40 "2013-02-28T21:22:23Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > I think it is a matter of focus. > > It seems to me that bands that focused on writing what they want instead of writing what happens to be popular at the moment tend to stick around. There are exceptions but for the most part the bands that stick to their vision tend to last. > > For example, Dream Theater released their first album in 1989, they will release their next album this year. While they have changed during that time, the changed in a natural way instead of jumping on whichever bandwagon was hip. Rush is another example. Rush has changed a ton but the core style is always there. Ozzy is another. > > Then take Metallica. They went off the rails a bit lately. It seems to me that the reason for that is they abandoned their core. > > Additionally, most rock is rather shallow. The bands that right about sex/drugs are awesome when you are 18 and every other thought is about getting laid. When you are older, married, got a job, etc, that whole party mentality gets replaced by the real world. > > Slee Some good examples here. Some bands can have long careers essentially recording the same material over and over, but they’re fairly rare. Musicians generally want to progress, whether its absorbing new influences or growing musically or whatever, but there’s some core essence to their sound that makes them who they are, and all they’re doing is finding ways to explore that core with new sounds, new skills, new influences. Bands die out when they lose that core, or their fans lose interest in it. I think Dream Theater is a fantastic example of the type of band that has maintained that core but continued to change and remain creative. Every album they’ve released has a very definitive Dream Theater sound, but there’s also very clear changes. They’ve managed to remain creative because they always have new influences and, in fact, their most recent album was one of their best in a while and I expect their next one will have even more progression with their new drummer bringing in his influence right from the start of the composing. The thing is, a lot of labels and bands want to sell more records, so they incorporate popular trends which doesn’t work with their core, or their core is so ingrained in a current trend that they just can’t last when the trend ends. Regardless, I don’t think age kills creativity. No matter what idea you have, without bringing in new influences, it will get old. It’s just a matter of how willing one is to bring in those influences and how well they work together. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-age-kill-rock-and-roll-creativity/651586.md?page=3)