# Does America need a federal Value Added Tax? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006 "2010-06-05T00:58:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/41 "2010-06-08T01:53:40Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > **It’s probably not a problem in earnest, however we won’t repeal the remainder of the associated taxes. I’d suspect, being America, that we’d layer the VAT right over the existing tax structure (for the consumer) and we’ll be solidly screwed out of that much more money.** > In my current bracket, I will pay approximately $17,000 between SS, \*\*unemployment \*\*and taxes this year from my payroll alone. This doesn’t take into account the federal, state and local taxes collected from me whenever I make a purchase. Add what I spend yearly and I will easily contribute $25,000 in total in taxes. > > I rent an apartment, I have no kids in schools, I have yet to call either the fire or police departments. I drive on the roads, walk my dogs in a park and drink the water; that’s the extent of my use of the system, and I pay for two of the three of those directly. > > Another tax on top of this structure and I will consider simply dropping out of society and moving to a cabin in Montana and living off of the land. Easily 1/4 of the money I make evaporates in taxes and it’s only going to get worse with what’s expected of Healthcare. > > A VAT tax, or any other tax for that matter needs to be completely ignored unless and until they can figure out how to live on the money we’re currently giving them. That is why I do not want a VAT or flat tax passed because it would end up being in addition to we pay. Oh and a nitpick. Unless you are selfemployeed I doubt that you are paying any unemployment tax. In most stattes if not all that is paid by the employeer. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/42 "2010-06-08T01:57:03Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > That is why I do not want a VAT or flat tax passed because it would end up being in addition to we pay. > > Oh and a nitpick. Unless you are selfemployeed I doubt that you are paying any unemployment tax. In most stattes if not all that is paid by the employeer. A flat tax would be a way of doing the income tax differently, not a new tax. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/43 "2010-06-08T02:13:58Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > A flat tax would be a way of doing the income tax differently, not a new tax. With what we have in DC don’t bet on it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/44 "2010-06-08T02:17:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sounds persuasive to me. Do you think it’s a good idea? Absolutely NOT. If this tax were added, I bet dollars to donuts, no other tax (including sales or income or excise or “sin” tax) would be reduced or eliminated. We would just have another tax to pay, and nothing to show for it. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/45 "2010-06-08T05:09:39Z")
[sorry second post of the same. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/46 "2010-06-08T06:33:12Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > [QUOTE=Septimus;] > Every time I see this kind of garbage I want to puke at the stupidity of the American voter. There’s no “food freedom” day when we don’t have to pay for our food anymore. What is there about education, fire and police protection, highway maintenance, etc. that leads otherwise sapient primates to think they grow on trees effortlessly and with no cost?" The tax freedon date is a way of measuring just how much of your yearly income goes to taxes. I does not mean that after that day you do not have to pay taxes, just a measure of how many days you have to work to equal what you pay in taxes. [/QUOTE] Would it offend you, **Snnipe 70E** , if I admit that your effort at response mystifies me? My “greasy food freedom day” and “exotic masseuse freedom day” both come early in January, but I’m afraid the latter may precede the former this year. _That_ upsets me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/47 "2010-06-08T14:15:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Would it offend you, **Snnipe 70E** , if I admit that your effort at response mystifies me? > > My “greasy food freedom day” and “exotic masseuse freedom day” both come early in January, but I’m afraid the latter may precede the former this year. _That_ upsets me. 😉 Sorry but I was confused as to why as statement about tax freedon day would indicate that the American voter is stupid? Not that I am saying they are not stupid (look at who we vote into office). I am glad that your “greasy food freedon day” is in early January, I am not sure when mine is but it is definately much later, May, June, maybe July. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/48 "2010-06-08T16:03:57Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > With what we have in DC don’t bet on it. But that wouldn’t be a “flat tax” it would just be a tax increase. A flat tax is intended as a different way of doing the income tax, not an entirely new tax like the VAT. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/49 "2010-06-08T17:19:09Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > The tax freedon date is a way of measuring just how much of your yearly income goes to taxes. I does not mean that after that day you do not have to pay taxes, just a measure of how many days you have to work to equal what you pay in taxes. Tax freedom day is a way to make people who don’t even pay taxes believe that something was being taken from them. ---
**Author:** ![A.Selene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ec8ea/32.png) [@A.Selene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Selene)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/50 "2010-06-08T17:25:10Z")
While a VAT tax may be a better way to tax consumption, I agree with many of the posters here in strongly disapproving of it. As others have noted, it would be yet another way to raise taxes on the public without any corresponding decrease in other taxes. Take New Hampshire as an example. Here we have no state income or sales tax. Yes, the property taxes are high. Yet we have one of the [lowest tax burdens in the nation](http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/index.html). Fires aren’t destroying our neighborhoods, criminals aren’t ransacking houses, and the roads are in good repair. The lack of income or sales tax is key to the low tax burden: as there are a limited amount of ways to raise taxes, the politicians are on a shorter leash. Every new tax is a new way to take more from the taxpayer. We need to stop thinking up new ways to tax. We don’t have a revenue problem in the US; we have a spending problem. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/51 "2010-06-08T17:28:17Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > But that wouldn’t be a “flat tax” it would just be a tax increase. A flat tax is intended as a different way of doing the income tax, not an entirely new tax like the VAT. Flat tax is different than a VAT tax is different than the Fairtax. They are all bad ideas and generally trumpeted as some sort of panacea to taxation but that is where the similarity ends. None of these systems pretend they will collect MORe revenue, it is all they can do to provide support for revenue neutrality (in other words, “tax freedom day” occurs on the same day regardless of which system you use). All these different forms of taxation simply end up shifting the tax burden from one group to another, none of them serve to reduce the overall tax burden. In the end, the only thing that is going to reduce the tax burden is not tax reform but spending reform. Focusing on taxes is pretty stupid but it has worked so well for the Republican party over the last 30 years or so that they have tried all sorts of stupid ideas since then, some have worked well politically (see, gaybashing and pandering to religious fanatics) and some have not (see neoconservatism and Terri Schiavo). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/52 "2010-06-09T10:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Progressives need to concede that a good tax system is one that encourages investment, growth and jobs, not one that intrinsically soaks the rich and punishes corporations Never! ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/53 "2010-06-09T13:42:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Never! Then I am in trouble. I work in a high rise building. It is only 30% occupied. The building was purchased about 6 years ago by investors. Their idea was to fix it up fill it up and sell it. With no advantage to make investments in new companies, no new tenants. And if my company is taxed out of making money then they will look to cut over head. Maintenance gets defeered so not as many mantenance workers are needed. Crew gets cut. 3 man crew goes to 2.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/54 "2010-06-09T15:10:34Z")
That’s sad for you and all, but that company deserves to be punished, for their flagrant waste of resources. Leaving 70% of a building unoccupied - have they tried letting some of it to non-profits for costs? Of course not - there’s no profit in that :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/55 "2010-06-09T18:21:55Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Then I am in trouble. > > I work in a high rise building. It is only 30% occupied. The building was purchased about 6 years ago by investors. Their idea was to fix it up fill it up and sell it. With no advantage to make investments in new companies, no new tenants. And if my company is taxed out of making money then they will look to cut over head. Maintenance gets defeered so not as many mantenance workers are needed. Crew gets cut. 3 man crew goes to 2.:smack: Sounds like what’s happened at BP, but of course not through a desperate need to make enough money to survive the harsh tax regime. Companies are permanently incentivised to reduce overheads so as to maximise profits. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/56 "2010-06-09T20:08:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This business of spreading out the tax over the entire chain of sales: How on Earth would you track that? As others have said, it’s actually pretty simple, and doesn’t add much accounting overhead because any business already records its income and expenses. It’s really quite routine - you buy a printer, say, for your business, and the VAT on the printer goes in the negative column of your VAT return. You sell whatever it is you sell, and the VAT on that sale goes in the positive column. At the end of the year, the balance in VAT is what you pay to the government. In other words, a percentage of the value you added, in your part of the entire value-generating process. Each merchant in the chain from raw material to end product does the same. Ultimately, of course, the end-consumer pays all the VAT because it’s reflected in the price they pay, but it avoids the problem of a crude sales tax, in which the same thing is taxed several times. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/57 "2010-06-09T21:45:14Z")
If the end consumer ultimately pays all the VAT, and everyone along the way also paid a part of the VAT, how is the same thing not taxed multiple times? ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/58 "2010-06-10T00:56:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s sad for you and all, but that company deserves to be punished, for their flagrant waste of resources. Leaving 70% of a building unoccupied - have they tried letting some of it to non-profits for costs? Of course not - there’s no profit in that :rolleyes: The non profits already have leases in other buildings. Rents now days just cover the loans if they are lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/59 "2010-06-10T00:59:46Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Sounds like what’s happened at BP, but of course not through a desperate need to make enough money to survive the harsh tax regime. Companies are permanently incentivised to reduce overheads so as to maximise profits. HUH? BP has been making large profits. BP was trying to increase profits by cutting safety. Completely different situation. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006/60 "2010-06-10T01:39:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **rowrrbazzle** , what makes you say that it’s progressives that want this tax? It looks to me that the quoted piece is more saying that big business and conservatives want it, and that progressives should just bend over and take it in the spirit of compromise. Everything I’ve ever heard about VAT taxes has come from conservatives on FOX outlining why it is **the evil**. I don’t know who wants it if you’re right that progressives don’t either. > [@A.Selene](#): > > Take New Hampshire as an example. Here we have no state income or sales tax. Yes, the property taxes are high. Yet we have one of the [lowest tax burdens in the nation](http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/index.html). Fires aren’t destroying our neighborhoods, criminals aren’t ransacking houses, and the roads are in good repair. The underlined is very much untrue in many parts of the state. I take it you don’t spend much time in the Dover or Rochester areas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-america-need-a-federal-value-added-tax/542006.md?page=4)