# Does American Culture swindle us, spiritually & emotionally? US/Non-all input welcome **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700 "2006-10-24T14:09:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/1 "2006-10-24T14:09:37Z")
**The quote below was published in 1871, & it is therefore reasonable to assume that it is no longer in copyright, & can be reproduced in full, without violation of SDMB policy.** > [@](#): > > “In the New World man is born to conquer. Life is a perpetual struggle. A rivalry from which no one can exempt himself, a race in the open field across terrible obstacles, with the prospect of enormous rewards for reaching to goal. The American cannot keep his arms folded. He must embark on something, and once embarked he must go on and on forever; for if he stops, those who follow him would crush him under their feet. His life is one long campaign, a succession of never-ending fights, marches, and countermarches. > > “In such a militant existence, what place is left for the sweetness, the repose, the intimacy of home or its joys? Is he happy? Judged by his tired, sad, exhausted, anxious, and often delicate and unhealthy appearance, one would be inclined to doubt it. Such an excess of uninterrupted labor cannot be good for any man. > > “The woman suffers most from this regime. She sees her husband at most for half an hour, once in the day, and then in the evening, when, worn out with fatigue, he comes home to sleep. She cannot lighten his burden or share his anxieties and cares, for she knows nothing of his business; for want of time, there is little or no interchange of thought between them. > > “As a mother, her share in the education of her children is of the smallest. As soon as her little ones can run alone, they pass their lives away from her, out of the house. They are entirely ignorant of the obedience or respect due their parents but, on the other hand, learn early to do without care or protection, to be self-sufficient. They ripen quickly and prepare themselves for the fatigues and struggles of the overexciting, harsh, adventurous life which awaits them.” > > **Josef Alexander, Graf von Hübner, was an Austrian diplomat who was the ambassador of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to Italy. He took a world tour after leaving that position, and published his observations.** Is this a valid criticism? Part of me feels it is. Do Americans lack a genuine sense of _Home_? Of _ease & repose_? Do American Men cut themselves off from the joys of Home & Family in ways men of other countries do not? Are American Women isolated from the bonds of children & husband in ways women of other countries are not? Does our way of life deny us peace of mind? Does American Culture swindle us, spiritually & emotionally? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/2 "2006-10-24T14:22:57Z")
Well - I’d rather have been an American farmer in 1871 than a Central European peasant. I rather think the Count was acquainted more with robber barons and merchant princes. But today? Today, I have to say, his words ring pretty true for those of us who wish for something more than the rat race and the material gifts it promises. I could say more, but no time. :rolleyes: Typical, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/3 "2006-10-24T14:26:41Z")
Like everything else, it’s true for some and not for others. My wife and I, for instance, see a ton of each other. I work at home and she works close to home, so she comes home for lunch and is home in the evening by 5:15. And we’re not especially hard working. Hell, we have more ease and repose than I feel comfortable with. If you buy into the rat race and all that, then you won’t have “ease and repose.” If you opt out, then you can. American culture is quite diverse and it’s ridiculous to try and pigeonhole everyone into one category in order to try and justify an outdated and inaccurate saying from the 1800’s. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/4 "2006-10-24T14:52:25Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Well - I’d rather have been an American farmer in 1871 than a Central European peasant. [/QUOTE] Why do you making that distictions between “farmers” and “peasants”? That’s 1871, not 1771. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/5 "2006-10-24T21:48:44Z")
[QUOTE=kellner] Why do you making that distictions between “farmers” and “peasants”? That’s 1871, not 1771. [/QUOTE] It’s clear enough to me. ‘Farmer’ and ‘Peasant’ are both ‘Bauer’ in German, but they have different connotations in English. ‘Peasant’ in English implies a downtrodden state, likely a tenant farmer beholden to some local lord. Weren’t the social residues of feudalism still much in evidence in 19th-Century rural Central Europe? ‘Farmer’ on the other hand, usually connotes a freeholder; in 1871 who would likely have been a homesteader, or a person who took a parcel out of the wilderness and began farming it, and thereby acquired title persuant to the Homestead Act of 1863. ---
**Author:** ![Logan\_5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/fbc32d/32.png) [@Logan\_5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Logan_5)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/6 "2006-10-24T22:54:53Z")
It may have been a valid criticism for a good portion of the American work force back then. Certainly there are people who still work long hours, don’t interact with their family as a result, and who may be in poor health due to hard work. But I don’t believe that is the case for a large enough number of Americans to validate the statement today. However the OP asks if Amercian culture swindles us emotionally and spiritually. I say quite possibly, but not because of hard work. I’d say poor choices, lack of opportunities, poor resource management, unfair governmental policies, marketing pressures, shrinking middle class, lack of parenting skills, over-litigious society and maladjusted personalities are more likely to blame. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/7 "2006-10-24T23:23:13Z")
[QUOTE=Logan 5] However the OP asks if Amercian culture swindles us emotionally and spiritually. I say quite possibly, but not because of hard work. I’d say poor choices, lack of opportunities, poor resource management, unfair governmental policies, marketing pressures, shrinking middle class, lack of parenting skills, over-litigious society and maladjusted personalities are more likely to blame. [/QUOTE] No wonder our economy is in the tank, and that immigration has reversed, with folks fleeing the US in droves… Oh, wait… 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/8 "2006-10-24T23:27:47Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] ‘Farmer’ and ‘Peasant’ are both ‘Bauer’ in German, but they have different connotations in English. ‘Peasant’ in English implies a downtrodden state, likely a tenant farmer beholden to some local lord. Weren’t the social residues of feudalism still much in evidence in 19th-Century rural Central Europe? [/QUOTE] Thanks for chiming in, **Spec**. I assume as you do. There certainly wasn’t nearly the social mobility or the easier access to land that there was for Americans. (My great-great-grandfather was one of those Homestead Act-created farmers.) > [@Logan 5](#): > > However the OP asks if Amercian culture swindles us emotionally and spiritually. I say quite possibly, but not because of hard work. I’d say poor choices, lack of opportunities, poor resource management, unfair governmental policies, marketing pressures, shrinking middle class, lack of parenting skills, over-litigious society and maladjusted personalities are more likely to blame. While it may be true that good hard work never killed anybody, let’s give credit where due. Careerism, consumerism, materialism, the media, and, yes, _even our legendary work ethic_ all play a part in isolating us from one another and life. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/9 "2006-10-25T00:20:19Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] Does American Culture swindle us, spiritually & emotionally? [/QUOTE] On balance, [yes, in those ways and in several other, more clearly measurable ways.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7560112&postcount=74) See also [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286068) ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/10 "2006-10-25T01:05:57Z")
If I’m to judge by the latter link in _BG_’s post, one of the biggest swindles perpetrated on us is the constant paranoid attack-dogging of anyone who believes the free market ever produces anything less than the best possible results for all. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/11 "2006-10-25T01:44:55Z")
You have to take Hubner’s comments in the context of their time. In 1871 America stood out (along with England and Germany) as a big industrial, capitalist, market-driven, middle-class nation. The Austria-Hungary Empire was notably conservative, aristocratic, and agrarian, with a large class of farmers with no upward mobility. It’s no surprise that a diplomat would want to justify the situation, implying: “We’re not oppressing our poor; we’re just saving them from the exhausting, soul-crushing, family-destroying industrial world.” I don’t mean to declare that everything Hubner says about America is wrong, only that he definitely had a purpose here. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/12 "2006-10-25T16:51:48Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] If I’m to judge by the latter link in _BG_’s post, one of the biggest swindles perpetrated on us is the constant paranoid attack-dogging of anyone who believes the free market ever produces anything less than the best possible results for all. [/QUOTE] You wanna get down from beating that straw high horse? We need the wood. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/13 "2006-10-29T17:11:06Z")
America has given the world many economic benefits albeit at the cost of individuality ,many ground breaking scientific discoveries and protected the West during the cold war,but tv/movie entertaintment tends to be of an almost universal blandness(not awesome ,not awful) and a fair amount of U.S. foreign policy in recent years has been very naive. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/14 "2006-10-29T20:15:22Z")
Do women in particular have it worse? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-american-culture-swindle-us-spiritually-emotionally-us-non-all-input-welcome/377700/15 "2006-10-30T14:47:38Z")
I’m not so sure farm life in America in the 1870s was so much better than that in Central Europe. Please allow me to acquaint you with the [Panic of 1873](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1873) and the ensuing [“Long Depression”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression). The resulting economic crisis on American farms led to the formation of the [Farmers’ Alliance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers%27_Alliance) and then to a generalized agrarian revolt, culminating in the formation of the radicalized [People’s Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populist_Party_%28United_States%29) (better known as the Populist Party). And if you think American farmers weren’t beholden to lords, well, they had “lords” of the American variety, namely railroads (whose monopolies allowed them to charge confiscatory rates to ship farm goods) and banks (which charged similarly confiscatory interest rates).