# Does any man's death really diminish us as individuals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119 "2016-02-14T15:14:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/41 "2016-02-15T02:27:29Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Just as no man is an island, the highlighted line doesn’t stand alone. The full thought is - “any man’s death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind.” Donne isn’t speaking of how a death affects any of us on a personal, individual, level. Donne is referring to the great fabric of humanity . . . This. The OP has stuck the words “as individuals” into his question, even though those words are not in the quoted text from Donne and, indeed, the whole point that Donne is making is that we are not just individuals; we are all “involved in mankind”, and the collective dimension of the human experience is just as central as the individual dimension. A couple of people have posted to say that they could, hypothetically, rejoice at certain deaths. Perhaps so, but that doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t be diminished by them, in Donne’s sense. Donne doesn’t say that every death makes, or should make, you unhappy; just that it diminishes you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/42 "2016-02-15T02:49:26Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Donne doesn’t say that every death makes, or should make, you unhappy; just that it diminishes you. That kind of diminishment doesn’t sound so bad, really. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/43 "2016-02-15T02:59:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That kind of diminishment doesn’t sound so bad, really. Yeah, sounds like the same sense the having a tumor removed diminishes you. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/44 "2016-02-15T03:14:38Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Could you define what you mean when you say it diminishes us? Can I second that someone who believes this statement actually define the word “diminish” for us? Because from everything I see here, it means everything and nothing simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/45 "2016-02-15T03:14:42Z")
I think you’re asking two separate questions. > [@dropzone](#): > > The highlighted line has been referred to repeatedly in the Pit thread about Justice Scalia’s death, but is it always true? I can see it having some vague, hippy validity when said about a child in a war-torn land starving when food is kept from her by the fighting, but does it still work when a nasty old man dies in his sleep in the lap of luxury? Or a different nasty old man who caused the deaths of thousands of innocents is shot down like a dog in his bedroom? Or a nasty young man gets killed while trying to prevent an aid convoy from reaching that little girl? These seem like wins, not losses. So here, I think you are asking whether a “deserved” death necessarily diminishes humankind. I don’t know. I don’t think that was the question Donne was intending to address. Did you ever read the Flannery O’Connor short story “A Good Man is Hard to Find”? > [@dropzone](#): > > As a counter-quote I will turn to a lesser poet, R Dean Taylor, who said, “If a man ever needed dying, he did.” Personally, while I’d prefer that Scalia had retired and spent his declining years in the bosom of his family rather than stinking up the Supreme Court, he chose the only alternative his beliefs would allow. I shed no tears over his death, only wishing it had happened years ago, and I know this shows me to be less nice than I could be, but if his death improves the lives of people I know and like, how else does it diminish me? His colleague, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said of him, [QUOTE=RBG] . . .when I wrote for the Court and received a Scalia dissent, the opinion ultimately released was notably better than my initial circulation. Justice Scalia nailed all the weak spots-the “applesauce” and “argle bargle”-and gave me just what I needed to strengthen the majority opinion. [/QUOTE] That seems to be a very modern and concrete example of how she, personally, is diminished by his loss. I certainly lean closer to RBG than Justice Scalia when it comes to politics. Still, I can see that as a country we are lesser for having lost him. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/46 "2016-02-15T03:25:43Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Can I second that someone who believes this statement actually define the word “diminish” for us? Because from everything I see here, it means everything and nothing simultaneously. Sure. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > A part of me feels a loss when any person dies. > > That’s entirely separate from the fact that quite a few people are net value subtractors with regards to the human endeavor. I doubt whether there are many who contribute absolutely nothing, but I suspect that quite a few do more harm than good. That does not change my feeling of loss. So yeah, I’ll endorse the quote referenced in the OP’s title in casual conversation. I’m diminished a little at least. Diminished = feels or at least perceives a loss, at least partly. Other emotions may occur as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/47 "2016-02-15T03:37:45Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Diminished = feels or at least perceives a loss, at least partly. Other emotions may occur as well. By that definition, I’m sure a lot of people will be un- or even anti-diminished by the deaths of some others. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/48 "2016-02-15T03:40:36Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > . . . Donne doesn’t say that every death makes, or should make, you unhappy; just that it diminishes you. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That kind of diminishment doesn’t sound so bad, really. I take your point. But Donne wouldn’t necessary share the assumption that the only meaningful form of human improvement is happiness, or the only meaningful form of human diminution is unhappiness. In fact, the pursuit of happiness (in the sense of emotional contentment or gratification) can itself diminish you; you can make choices which gratify you but which also diminish you, at least in the sense of failing to take on a challenge, or failing to take advantage of an opportunity for growth or improvement, or to realise your potential in some other way. Hence, diminution does not equal unhappiness, and vice versa. It’s different, of course, when someone dies; that isn’t (usually!) the result of a choice on your part, so the diminution that Donne talks of can’t be a failure on your part. But it remains that the mere fact that the death makes you happy doesn’t tell you very much, one way or the other, about whether it diminishes you, and that will always be the case unless you consider it axiomatic that increased happiness is the only form of growth, and reduced happiness the only form of diminution. Which is not, obviously, Donne’s position. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/49 "2016-02-15T06:36:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > By that definition, I’m sure a lot of people will be un- or even anti-diminished by the deaths of some others. Sure. You can even feel both diminished and empowered at the same time. No contradiction there, necessarily. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/50 "2016-02-15T06:55:23Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yeah, sounds like the same sense the having a tumor removed diminishes you. Actually, I think this is exactly what Donne means. St. Augustine talked about the members of Christiandom making up a “body.” (Bear with me-- I read this back in college in the 90s, and may get it slightly wrong.) Even the removal of a gangrenous limb, while necessary to the survival of the whole, is still an assault on the whole. You have to remember that Donne is not addressing everyone: he is not addressing Buddhists, Baha’i’s, Muslims, or Jews, he is addressing Christians, and specifically criticizing those among them who think that some funerals are more worthy of their time than others. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/51 "2016-02-15T07:07:31Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Actually, I think this is exactly what Donne means. St. Augustine talked about the members of Christiandom making up a “body.” . . . Nitpick: St Paul. Specifically, the “body of Christ”. He develops this theme at some length. > [@RivkahChaya](#): > > You have to remember that Donne is not addressing everyone: he is not addressing Buddhists, Baha’i’s, Muslims, or Jews, he is addressing Christians, and specifically criticizing those among them who think that some funerals are more worthy of their time than others. This. The quote comes from Meditation XVII of the _Devotions upon Emergent Occasions_. [Meditation XVII](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Meditation_XVII) starts off by pointing to baptism, and reminding the reader how, when the church “baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member”. The funeral, then, is simply the flip-side of this Christian truth. Which is why to ask if the death of another diminishes us _as individuals_ is to completely miss Donne’s point. It diminishes the Body of Christ; if you want to update that and rethink it in secular terms it diminishes the community (and, therefore, all of us). But if you don’t think the community is important; if you think we only have value as individuals, or that our value as individuals is in no way connected with the health of the community then, yeah, what Donne says will make no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/52 "2016-02-15T13:58:16Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Sure. You can even feel both diminished and empowered at the same time. No contradiction there, necessarily. Can you feel both diminished and anti-undiminished at the same time such that they cancel each other out and you are exactly the same as you were before? ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/53 "2016-02-15T14:36:30Z")
As I read these posts, I recall when Ronald Reagan was shot. I was in middle school where 95% of the students were children of color who thought they were oppressed by the man. The Principle announced the news over the intercom, and my classmates jumped up and began a robust celebration of cheers and dancing. After our teacher settled the class down, you could hear the roar of the celebrations coming from the other classrooms. It’s too bad Scalia died on the weekend. Think of the joy that never materialized because the moment has already passed. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/54 "2016-02-15T15:54:05Z")
If diminished is being used in the same sense that you’re diminished when you have a tumor removed, that is inconsistent with how everyone else uses it. Nobody would say “I know you might be happy that the surgery was successful, but keep in mind that we’re all diminished by the loss of cancer so be respectful.” However, that’s exactly the sort of thing that is said after a death. Perhaps that was the intention behind that original saying, but it no longer means that. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/55 "2016-02-15T20:11:09Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Can you feel both diminished and anti-undiminished at the same time such that they cancel each other out and you are exactly the same as you were before? Can you feel both angry and sad so that they cancel each other out and you are exactly the same way as you were before? No. Emotions don’t work like that. They are qualitative, not quantitative. So they do not add. Or subtract. You can make decisions based upon how you weigh various feelings. But there’s no decision to be considered in this case. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/56 "2016-02-15T20:23:37Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Can you feel both angry and sad so that they cancel each other out and you are exactly the same way as you were before? > > No. Emotions don’t work like that. They are qualitative, not quantitative. So they do not add. Or subtract. Conflicting emotions are a thing, you know. It’s called [ambivalence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalence), and it is a sign of mental illness. Anger and sadness would not cancel each other anyway. They both have a negative valence. But an equal measure of sadness would certainly cancel out a equal measure of happiness . I think the resulting state would be more confused than neutral, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/57 "2016-02-15T20:33:08Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Can you feel both angry and sad so that they cancel each other out and you are exactly the same way as you were before? > > No. Emotions don’t work like that. They are qualitative, not quantitative. So they do not add. Or subtract. > > You can make decisions based upon how you weigh various feelings. But there’s no decision to be considered in this case. Then how do I manage to feel undiminished by the 150,000 people who die every day? I mean, I even had to look up the number; if each of their individual deaths diminished me somehow, wouldn’t I feel each of those deaths? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/58 "2016-02-15T20:36:44Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > He was found guilty by a court, but was actually innocent. That’s not possible. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/59 "2016-02-15T20:49:09Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > The Left/ Progressives are so angry that it genuinely frightens me. One of the great things about the Christian religion is that we are urged to forgive and be humble. “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.” But the Left/ Progressives take every course of action and opinion by the Right and twists it into an an act of unforgivable evil. Living angry is no way to live. That is not an accurate reading of the situation in this universe. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119/60 "2016-02-15T20:51:18Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Then how do I manage to feel undiminished by the 150,000 people who die every day? I mean, I even had to look up the number; if each of their individual deaths diminished me somehow, wouldn’t I feel each of those deaths? Positive population growth offsets it. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-any-mans-death-really-diminish-us-as-individuals/746119.md?page=4)