# Does anybody believe in the free market? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471 "2019-12-27T21:42:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/1 "2019-12-27T21:42:32Z")
Sure, lots of people mouth the words, but every capitalist I can observe tries to restrict the market just as soon as he gets a foot in the door. Even hairdressers try to restrict entry of competitors. Every profession works hard to restrict entry. Once upon a time you could get to be a doctor or a lawyer by apprenticing to one, but no longer. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/2 "2019-12-27T21:45:06Z")
I haven’t worked hard to restrict entry my profession. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/3 "2019-12-27T21:49:36Z")
I thought I understood basic microeconomics till I started talking to a friend who sells on Amazon. I got really good grades and everything! ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/4 "2019-12-27T22:10:38Z")
I’m actively lobbying to increase entry into my profession. Legalize home distilling! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/5 "2019-12-27T22:12:35Z")
To be precise, capitalists fervently advocate a free market for everybody else, especially the companies they are buying from, but secretly wish for a monopoly for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/6 "2019-12-27T23:14:38Z")
I think the barriers to entry come more from outside professions than inside, as a general rule. Governments tend to listen to people who have gotten burned by poorly trained professionals, and try to make sure that doesn’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/7 "2019-12-27T23:19:38Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Sure, lots of people mouth the words, but every capitalist I can observe tries to restrict the market just as soon as he gets a foot in the door. Even hairdressers try to restrict entry of competitors. Every profession works hard to restrict entry. Which is exactly what any advocate of free markets would predict. In fact it’s exactly what Adam Smith predicted in _The Wealth of Nations_: “Rarely do two or three members of the same trade meet together, but it results in a conspiracy against the public.”\* In other words, Smith was well aware that members of a profession have a motivation to act together in ways that help them get more money from their buyers, and passing laws to restrict competitors is one obvious way that plays out. Any advocate of free markets knows that the best solution is to have a government which has strict limits on what economic regulations it can impose, as the American federal government largely did through the 19th century into the early 20th. Once the government has the ability to impose economic regulation, commercial interest groups will inevitably use their influence to make the government pass rules that restrict competition with themselves and their members. \*Quoting from memory so I may be off by a few words. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/8 "2019-12-27T23:27:14Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Any advocate of free markets knows that the best solution is to have a government which has strict limits on what economic regulations it can impose, as the American federal government largely did through the 19th century into the early 20th. Which was a particularly shitty time for workers, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/9 "2019-12-27T23:42:31Z")
My understanding is that a totally free market will devolve to a monopoly or commodity. This applies to product, service and also labor for the goods. So either you have something very special and be part of the very few who can charge their price, or you are one of the heard getting the price given you, which will be low. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/10 "2019-12-28T01:12:55Z")
No, there’s no true Scotsman. That includes Adam Smith. He was neither Scottish nor a believer in the free market. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/11 "2019-12-28T01:16:34Z")
The notion of a free market means that the _market_ is free to move without government intervention, not that _individuals_ are free to do whatever they choose without regard for any rules. For a market to be free _requires_ careful regulation to prevent anti-competitive practices. In general, Libertarians don’t understand how an effective free market economy works any better than Communists, because Libertarians don’t understand that free markets require careful regulation in order to function. In a sensibly run market, nothing should depend on the goodwill of market participants to behave fairly. It is down to the legal framework and sensible market regulations to enforce fair competition. Then the only necessary requirement for an individual participant is that they must follow the law. If anti-competitive practices are rife, don’t blame human nature, blame the poor regulatory framework. ETA: in other words, pretty much exactly the opposite of what ITR champion said. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/12 "2019-12-28T02:23:42Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Every profession works hard to restrict entry. Once upon a time you could get to be a doctor or a lawyer by apprenticing to one, but no longer. A quick google search turns up [four states](http://likelincoln.org/state-by-state-guide-to-apprenticeships/) where you can still apprentice to a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/13 "2019-12-28T03:06:07Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > To be precise, capitalists fervently advocate a free market for everybody else, especially the companies they are buying from, but secretly wish for a monopoly for themselves. Well of course they do. Everyone does. The observation that people want individually what they will vote the opposite of, because they understand that selfish needs and collective action don’t work the same, is second year economics stuff. I think everyone should pay their fair share of taxes. Of course I’m not going to pay more than I absolutely have to. I will happily vote for a needed tax increase that I would not individually volunteer to pay. That’s common sense. Lots and lots and lots of people believe in the free market. Sure, if the subsidy lands on their desk they’ll take it, since if the system is broken you might as well make hay while the sun shines. Having said that, ignorance of economics and what constitutes a free market can mean a person just doesn’t know what they’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/14 "2019-12-28T04:00:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The observation that people want individually what they will vote the opposite of, because they understand that selfish needs and collective action don’t work the same, is second year economics stuff. As long as it’s a year later than the OP’s statement, it’s all good. > [@](#): > > Having said that, ignorance of economics and what constitutes a free market can mean a person just doesn’t know what they’re talking about. I think, having said that, you need to come back and tell us third-year stuff about what the free market \*really \*is. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/15 "2019-12-28T04:11:54Z")
One can be a believer in the free market and yet think there should be high educational and professional standards for entry into a profession. Training helps ensure good standards within the professions in providing their services to the public. We want doctors who won’t kill us, lawyers who won’t undercut iour rights, electricians who won’t cause our houses to burn down. Strong professional standards are entirely consistent with the free market. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/16 "2019-12-28T04:19:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > No, there’s no true Scotsman. That includes Adam Smith. He was neither Scottish nor a believer in the free market. Leaving aside the second part, how was he not Scottish? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/17 "2019-12-28T04:30:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Strong professional standards are entirely consistent with the free market. It’s a feature. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/18 "2019-12-28T04:35:08Z")
He put sugar on his porridge, obviously. And **ITR Champion** , do you seriously believe that the solution to monopolies is for the government to be powerless to create regulations against monopolies? Or that the early 20th century was noted for the lack of monopolies? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/19 "2019-12-28T04:54:57Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > No, there’s no true Scotsman. That includes Adam Smith. He was neither Scottish nor a believer in the free market. I think you meant to say he wasn’t Holy or Roman or an Empire. He was certainly both Scottish and a [believer](https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Smith.html)in the free market as he and most economists defined it for most of the next two centuries. > [@](#): > > Adam Smith has sometimes been caricatured as someone who saw no role for government in economic life. In fact, he believed that government had an important role to play. Like most modern believers in free markets, Smith believed that the government should enforce contracts and grant patents and copyrights to encourage inventions and new ideas. He also thought that the government should provide public works, such as roads and bridges, that, he assumed, would not be worthwhile for individuals to provide. Interestingly, though, he wanted the users of such public works to pay in proportion to their use. He was also against monopoly and mercantilism (“the practice of artificially maintaining a trade surplus on the erroneous belief that doing so increased wealth”) and therefore a free-trader. He couldn’t possibly have been right about everything in a modern economy such as ours, but we’d be better off if more people studied what he actually advocated for. You know, first year stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/20 "2019-12-28T05:07:13Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Sure, lots of people mouth the words, but every capitalist I can observe tries to restrict the market just as soon as he gets a foot in the door. Ninety-nine percent of people believe in a free market. The other one percent own everything. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471.md?page=2)