# Does anybody believe in the free market? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471 "2019-12-27T21:42:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/41 "2019-12-29T10:47:21Z")
OP’s question is illogical. Businessmen opposed to government regulation who accept it happily when it benefits them? Sure! There are also men who totally approve of marital fidelity but, or so I’m told, might be happy to splurge on a buxom stripper at a drunken bachelor party. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Note that restricting the scope of non-compete clauses is actually a limitation on the free market … [but] The courts take a dim view of non-compete clauses because of the power imbalance between the employer and employee … Many businessmen touting the benefits of a “free market” are actually bragging about the power imbalance they exploit. For examples one need look no further than Congressional shills who tout America’s “free market” healthcare system. (Hilarious!) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/42 "2019-12-29T12:45:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Don’t tell us what we want. Anarchism isn’t chaos, and not all anarchists are against regulated markets. Far from it. You can use any Humpty-Dumpty definitions you like, but I suggest you look up the dictionary definitions of anarchy and anarchism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/43 "2019-12-29T14:20:49Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > You can use any Humpty-Dumpty definitions you like, but I suggest you look up the dictionary definitions of anarchy and anarchism. Anarchism isn’t anarchy, so I don’t particularly see the relevance of the first one. And I’m an actual anarchist, so I don’t give a flying fuck what the dictionary says about anarchism. But \*if \*I did, it wouldn’t matter, since all the dictionary definitions of anarchism I can find seem to have very little to say about how market regulation is handled, one way or another. Perhaps you had a specific one in mind that says different, that you can share with the rest of the class? Since you seem to think the dictionary definitions somehow counter what I said. Which I stand by - anarchists don’t want unregulated markets. we either want[\*no \*markets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_abolitionism), or else \*very \*tightly regulated ones, depending on flavour of anarchism. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/44 "2019-12-29T14:38:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …depending on flavour of anarchism. Well I know anarcho-syndicalists are very touchy about being repressed. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/45 "2019-12-29T14:59:31Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I’m actively lobbying to increase entry into my profession. Legalize home distilling! I would like to know more about this, and possibly support your efforts, but I’m assuming this is not the thread to discuss it further. And I’m unclear on the rules on a thread specifically about lobbying for something. I’ll ask in ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/46 "2019-12-29T17:01:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Don’t tell us what we want. Anarchism isn’t chaos, and not all anarchists are against regulated markets. Far from it. I don’t know about anarchists, but the one libertarian I knew didn’t want the government to do anything but run the military and the police force. Specifically, he wanted every homeowner on a street to own the roadway in front of his own property and charge a toll to everyone who uses it, or even walks over it. He hoped the owners would get together and have a joint agreement, but if they didn’t that was okay too. He wasn’t exactly stupid (he had a PhD in math and then got a degree in law) but he cannot really have thought through all the implications of this. Is it something he could have picked up in Ayn Rand, whom he worshiped? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/47 "2019-12-29T17:24:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Anarchism isn’t anarchy, so I don’t particularly see the relevance of the first one. > > And I’m an actual anarchist, so I don’t give a flying fuck what the dictionary says about anarchism. But \*if \*I did, it wouldn’t matter, since all the dictionary definitions of anarchism I can find seem to have very little to say about how market regulation is handled, one way or another. > > Perhaps you had a specific one in mind that says different, that you can share with the rest of the class? Since you seem to think the dictionary definitions somehow counter what I said. > > Which I stand by - anarchists don’t want unregulated markets. we either want[\*no \*markets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_abolitionism), or else \*very \*tightly regulated ones, depending on flavour of anarchism. If anarchists don’t believe in anarchy, don’t you think they should choose a different name for themselves? What I had in mind were the dictionary definitions, because they show what most people think it means. If you asked people, I think you’d find that 99% think that anarchists believe in anarchy. Now, perhaps you don’t care a flying fuck whether other people misunderstand what you believe in… except that your anger and vehemence seem to show that you do. No markets? Good luck trying to change human nature! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/48 "2019-12-29T20:10:17Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I would like to know more about this, and possibly support your efforts, but I’m assuming this is not the thread to discuss it further. And I’m unclear on the rules on a thread specifically about lobbying for something. I’ll ask in ATMB. Well, most of my work has been writing articles for regional publications and talking to the industry lobbying groups (ADI, ACSA, and DISCUS) about getting it added to their platforms. The original version of the Craft Spirits Modernization Act had a provision to legalize home distilling but that was removed when it was rolled into the Trump tax cuts. I spent hours talking to my local congressmen and senators about the CSMA but it never even got brought up for a vote. In general, I’d like to bring spirits (and to some extent wine) into regulatory parity with beer. Currently you can brew beer at home, make wine and (in some states) grow weed but you can go to jail for distilling even a drop of potable alcohol and can lose the property you’re distilling on. Further once we are in the realm of taxed spirits beer is taxed (federally) at $0.11/gallon while 40% abv whiskey is taxed at $2.16/gallon and most wine is at $0.57/gallon. These excise taxes should be equalized with my preferred method being to equalize at the craft beer level and all alcohol should be taxed at $0.92 per proof gallon. Both of these things will help the craft spirits industry because allowing home distilling will enable people to perfect their recipies and processes before spending the money to go pro. This will increase the quality of craft spirits. Right now we generally, have people either with more balls then brains who are either willing to break the law and learn how to distill before investing but then we expect them to become perfect rule following robots after years of being law breakers or people with more money than brains who are willing to invest hundreds or thousands or millions if dollars into something they know nothing about. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/49 "2019-12-30T15:34:42Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > What I had in mind were the dictionary definitions, because they show what most people think it means. “Most people” aren’t anarchists, so what they think is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Now, perhaps you don’t care a flying fuck whether other people misunderstand what you believe in… except that your anger and vehemence seem to show that you do. What makes you think I’m angry? You think you’re the first person around here to mistake a dictionary for a manifesto? What I am is bored by the lack of originality in the discourse around anarchism. What does make me \*vehement \*is someone telling me that I’m wrong about something I’m actually involved in and they’re not. Because they read a fucking dictionary. A dictionary, we should all note, that they still haven’t quoted from as to it saying anything about markets and the regulation thereof. > [@](#): > > No markets? Good luck trying to change human nature! 🙂 Yeah, all those millennia of pre-market _Homo sapiens_. They might have \*looked \*human, but clearly they lacked some intrinsic element of humanity… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/50 "2019-12-30T16:35:54Z")
Help me out here. In an anarchist system, how can you have “tightly regulated” markets? What mechanism would be used to regulate the market? And how is tight regulation a principle of anarchism? (Not trying to be snarky or play gotcha - i’M genuinely interested in your comment and would like more info.) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/51 "2019-12-30T17:26:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Most people” aren’t anarchists, so what they think is irrelevant. > > What makes you think I’m angry? You think you’re the first person around here to mistake a dictionary for a manifesto? What I am is bored by the lack of originality in the discourse around anarchism. > > What does make me \*vehement \*is someone telling me that I’m wrong about something I’m actually involved in and they’re not. Because they read a fucking dictionary. > > A dictionary, we should all note, that they still haven’t quoted from as to it saying anything about markets and the regulation thereof. > > Yeah, all those millennia of pre-market _Homo sapiens_. They might have \*looked \*human, but clearly they lacked some intrinsic element of humanity… :rolleyes: Yes, I can see you’re not angry… 🙂 Markets don’t require a money economy. People have been bartering goods as far back as recorded history goes. There was also plenty of trade early in prehistory, as items found a long distance from their origins among different cultures show. Another example is pre-European [Native-American markets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_Indian_Trading_Networks_before_Lewis_and_Clark): > [@](#): > > The trading networks encountered by the first Europeans on the Great Plans were built on a number of trading centers acting as hubs in an advanced system of exchange over great distances. The major centers were found at the villages of sedentary peoples with a surplus of agricultural produce that could be exchanged.[1] [2] Treasured commodities such as marine shells, obsidian, and turquoise were transported thousands of miles from their origin.[3] [4] > > The primary trading centers were found on the middle Missouri River, at the villages of the Mandans, Hidatsa, and Arikara. The central place of these villages in the exchange system was based on an advantageous geographical position combined with a surplus from agriculture and craft. Historical sources show that the Middle Missouri villages were visited by Cree, Assiniboine, Crow, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Kiowa, Plains Apache and Comanche. The Arikara villages were also frequented by the Sioux. South of the Arikara the Sioux gathered at the Dakota Rendezvous, an annual fair exchanging goods acquired from other Indian nations. The villages of the Pawnee, Kansa, and Osage were secondary centers on the central plains. On the southern plains, the Caddo villages formed important secondary centers whose westward exchange connected the Plains trading networks with the Southwestern trading networks. In other words, there was a market economy based on barter. Money facilitates markets, but it doesn’t define markets. But perhaps anarchists have their own secret definition of what ‘market’ means? And their own understanding of ‘human nature’? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/52 "2019-12-30T17:39:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Help me out here. In an anarchist system, how can you have “tightly regulated” markets? What mechanism would be used to regulate the market? Self-regulation, apparently. Examples would be the artificial markets of Proudhon’s Mutualism (that’s really old-school anarchism) and Fotopoulos’ Inclusive Democracy (hipster post-modern anarchism). Fotopoulos himself seems to favour market abolition, but the upshot of the artificial market proposed isn’t abolition, just a different kind of regulation. IMO, obviously. > [@](#): > > And how is tight regulation a principle of anarchism? It isn’t, which is why different anarchist tendencies have radically different views on it. And why a stance on markets isn’t part of dictionary definitions of anarchism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/53 "2019-12-30T17:46:17Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > There was also plenty of trade early in prehistory, as items found a long distance from their origins among different cultures show. A gift economy is not a market economy. We have no way of saying for certain that very early prehistoric “trade” was one or the other, but we can certainly say that human societies have existed based on the former. Without losing their “human nature”, apparently. And \*still \*no dictionary quote, I’ll note again. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/54 "2019-12-30T18:08:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And \*still \*no dictionary quote, I’ll note again. What kind of dictionary quote are you looking for, again? One that says ‘anarchism’ has something to with ‘anarchy’? One that says ‘anarchy’ doesn’t mean ‘market (or no-market) regulation’? Or what? Google gives me: **noun: anarchist** A person who believes in or tries to bring about anarchy. **noun: anarchy** 1. A state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems. 2. Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/55 "2019-12-30T18:26:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A gift economy is not a market economy. We have no way of saying for certain that very early prehistoric “trade” was one or the other, but we can certainly say that human societies have existed based on the former. Do you have any examples of a gift economy operating over long distances or across different tribes or cultures? Or only on a strictly local and small-scale basis, inside a homogeneous culture where everyone knows everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/56 "2019-12-30T18:43:32Z")
I should have added: **noun: anarchism** Belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion. _[That sounds very practical and in accord with human nature! - GW]_ - a political force or movement based on belief in anarchism. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/57 "2019-12-30T18:53:01Z")
I remember getting into a debate here in GD, some months ago with at least one die hard free market believer. Search isnt working for that, however. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/58 "2019-12-30T19:24:25Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Well, most of my work has been[…] Cool cool, thanks. I PMd you some specific questions that may run too close to the “support may cause!” rule for open discussion, if you have a moment to indulge me. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/59 "2019-12-30T20:16:45Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > You could make sure one person has a certificate and is responsible for ensuring that the establishment meets hygienic standards. But that’s not all that’s involved for hairdressers - there’s also dying,perming straightening, and in some places the same license required to perform those tasks also allows the person to perform waxing. And for those tasks, it’s not just hygiene that’s important.There’s also the need to recognize skin conditions that preclude waxing, or knowing the appropriate dye to use on eyelashes and so on. In addition, some of the chemicals used on hair can be hazardous if mis-used. The hairdressers themselves may be most at risk, due to occupational exposure, but the people they’re working on can also wind up injured – not to mention the environment in cases of improper disposal. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471/60 "2019-12-30T20:42:08Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > What kind of dictionary quote are you looking for, again? > […] > One that says ‘anarchy’ doesn’t mean ‘market (or no-market) regulation’? One that says anarchism \*necessitates \*unregulated markets. Like you said right at the start. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-believe-in-the-free-market/845471.md?page=4)