# Does anybody make money by writing books anymore **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 4, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590 "2016-11-04T06:25:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/41 "2016-11-05T15:28:33Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > 1. Among the top best-sellers you will find a lot of pure garbage: _Twilight_, Dan Brown, etc. etc. I don’t think a novel (at least by a previously-unknown author) can become that big a best seller without at least doing _something_ well. In the case of Dan Brown’s breakthrough novel _The Da Vinci Code_, I thought it was very good at getting the reader to keep turning pages, by raising questions that the reader wanted answered. It’s therefore quite entertaining, which counts for a lot with the average reader. (Admittedly there were other, more garbagey reasons for its popularity.) So if I were attempting to write a best-selling, money-making novel, I’d at least look to see how he kept readers on the edge of their seats and see if I could incorporate those techniques into an otherwise less trashy book. (I haven’t read _Twilight_ and don’t really plan to, but if I were attempting to write a book that appealed to the same audience, I probably would read it to see what there was about it that made it so popular that I could learn from.) ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/42 "2016-11-05T15:55:00Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I don’t think a novel (at least by a previously-unknown author) can become that big a best seller without at least doing _something_ well. I agree with that. Sometimes the thing that is “good,” however, is capitalizing on the stupid side of people instead of their smart side. For example, the Left Behind series capitalized on a toxic and reactionary strand of evangelical Christianity and leveraged the stupid of the Rapture. Dan Brown similarly leverages a really brain-dead and misinformed view of how the world works to produce “a stupid person’s idea of a smart book.” I mean, it’s kinda like saying Trump is doing something right because he’s going to get 40%+ of the vote. True in some sense, but beside the point. Though, I do agree about Brown being able to do the page-turner thing effectively. He is a classic pulp writer passed off by the industry as something more. With Meyer and _Twilight_, from what I have read, she was very good at tapping into young women’s feelings and fears and providing a wish-fulfilling fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/43 "2016-11-05T17:17:05Z")
The issue with making a living at it is it usually takes many books in the market to pull enough royalties to make a living - unless your first book published hits the bestseller list (which is seldom the first book written). I have a friend who has had a dozen books published - but the first four or five published were pretty much pin money - they lived off his wife’s income. He now makes enough money to support himself - but its taken years of disciplined effort. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/44 "2016-11-05T18:12:44Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Chuk, the only thing I can contest in your post is that you’re writing from the “if you keep at it, someone will publish it” line of thought - which is true and the gist of most “how to be a serious writer” guidelines from Heinlein’s on down. Sooner or later, anything worth reading finds a publisher. Under certain definitions of “worth reading.” The problem is that what a writer thinks is worth reading might not be at all what the public thinks. Traditional publishing is an imperfect filter to keep out the stuff that only interests a small circle of friends. And people, don’t listen to Heinlein unless you’re Heinlein. His writing advice was to write, do one revision for typos, and send out. Works great if you are a genius or have a reputation, but the rest of us need to revise. If you don’t believe me, read Galaxy 666. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/45 "2016-11-05T18:30:21Z")
> [@ssgenius](#): > > Excellent points and I learned a,lot from reading the responses and my I initAL fears were confirmed in that not to expect to make any money writing a book unless I was really really fortunate. > > One more question, do kids books say under 10 years old for a. Audience sell very well ? > It seems like > there are more kids books on the market than adult books. It is a bit disheartening to see that the books that were prominent when my kids were little are still prominent when looking for books for my grandson. Books for kids have very stringent rules on things like vocabulary and sentence length. Junior high books do also. Some publishers expect you to find an illustrator, while others would rather provide one. And I’m sure there are hot topics for these books. I believe there is little or no ebook market for books for kids under 10, because of the illustration requirement and because a lot of their sales are to libraries. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/46 "2016-11-05T23:30:41Z")
You can make money self-publishing. It’s not easy, I know. There’s a certain amount of luck involved (and it’s easier in some genres than others) but if you put out a good product, professionally edited, with a professionally-created cover and put some work and money into marketing it, it can happen. I know this because I’ve done it. I’m on track to gross in the high five figures this year from my self-publishing work. I know others who make way more than I do at it (for example, Annie Bellet, a fellow urban fantasy author, earns mid-six figures, and so does Mark Dawson, who writes spy thrillers (I believe he grossed around $650K one year)). Unfortunately, I also have friends who are writing great stories, their covers are beautiful, and they’re not selling nearly as well. It’s a shame, since I know their work is pro-quality. Sometimes it’s hard to tell why something catches on and something else doesn’t. But yeah, it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/47 "2016-11-05T23:38:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Under certain definitions of “worth reading.” The problem is that what a writer thinks is worth reading might not be at all what the public thinks. You’ve quoted me out of context; I was summarizing the traditional viewpoint only to poke at it. > [@](#): > > And people, don’t listen to Heinlein unless you’re Heinlein. His writing advice was to write, do one revision for typos, and send out. I won’t disagree that Heinlein’s rules are a bit narrow and incomplete, but that’s not what he says. His injunction is to revise only to editorial request - in other words, don’t get trapped in the loop of endlessly revising works. For his approach, you do the best you can - revisions and editing included - and then you move on to the next piece. Don’t keep reworking stuff you’ve already written. It makes sense on the level that you’re likely to write a better, more salable piece by starting something new than you are to try and polish up something you already did your best on. For writers with few ideas, it may not work well. 🙂 His rules are: 1. You must write. 2. You must finish what you write. 3. You must put the work out for sale. 4. You must keep the work out for sale until it sells. 5. You must refrain from rewriting except to editorial request. Hard to argue with, although there are some useful additions. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/48 "2016-11-06T00:26:29Z")
All I know is that **I** sure as hell don’t. Neither do the editors. My first book went through three main editors, and I lost count of how many sub-editors. I’ve told the story before on these Boards about the time I interviewed for a job as an editor at a magazine in New York City. On the salary they offered, I couldn’t afford to live in the City. And I couldn’t afford to commute in, either. Their editors must all either hold down other jobs, or else they were independently wealthy and editing for the love of the job. I can’t see any other way for it to work. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/49 "2016-11-06T01:52:19Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It makes sense on the level that you’re likely to write a better, more salable piece by starting something new than you are to try and polish up something you already did your best on. For writers with few ideas, it may not work well. 🙂 Heinlein’s first drafts were probably good enough to go without major revision. Mine aren’t. This isn’t what some editor says, this is what I think after I read through it. But you do have to stop the revisions sometime. After enough times this is no longer necessary. I can do 550 word columns in about an hour (once I get an idea) and since I’ve been doing them for 20 years all I need is a very slight revision before I send it. And they are within 50 words of my word limit the first draft. But I doubt many new writers can get away with it. When I get guest columns they need some work, usually. And the fiction I see in critique groups isn’t anywhere close to ready. No problem with the rest of his advice. Finishing is important in all things. ---
**Author:** ![ssgenius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/50 "2016-11-06T02:49:31Z")
Thanks for all the pointers. As I thought, it takes a lot longer to finish a book than anyone anticipates After 2 days, I am only up to 25 pages with reading over and re editing it and I figure my final version will be closer to 150 pages Thanks for the help and reading some of the discussions here tells me I have literally no chance of selling any more than a few copies. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/51 "2016-11-06T14:22:45Z")
> [@ssgenius](#): > > Thanks for the help and reading some of the discussions here tells me I have literally no chance of selling any more than a few copies. If your book is meaningful to those people, however, and you are proud of it, that can be worth it. I’m glad I self-pubbed my book. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/52 "2016-11-06T14:52:27Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Yes, the first buyer bought the book from the author, but the second buyer bought the book from someone who had read the book and was reselling it. The author made money from the first buyer, but not the second buyer. Before Amazon made buying used books from individuals easy, the second buyer would have had to go to a book store and buy the book and the author would have made money on that second book as well. Or the second person would have gotten it from a library sale. Or from a library giveaway. Or just read it at the library. Or borrowed it from a friend… In the three years I was in graduate school, I read dozens of books. Didn’t pay for a single one. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/53 "2016-11-06T15:51:05Z")
Some writers just want to be read, and they don’t care about the money. Some writers just want to make money, and they don’t care if anyone reads them or what they think of them. And in the middle are authors who want people to buy _and_ read their books. How do they feel about readers who read their books without buying them (because they borrowed them from the library or bought or were given a used copy)? How do they feel about people who buy but never read them? I’m sure the answers to those questions vary from one writer to another. And keep in mind that the person who reads a book without buying it may end up liking it enough that they do go on to buy that author’s other books, for themselves and/or to give to friends. While a book that a person buys but doesn’t read may eventually find its way into the hands of someone else who does read it. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/54 "2016-11-06T16:08:31Z")
Just like to point out the specific OP question: “Does anyone make money writing books?” Writing a book for other reasons would seem to be excluded by the question, but certainly not by the real range of reasons people undertake such an effort. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/55 "2016-11-06T20:10:12Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Some writers just want to be read, and they don’t care about the money. Some writers just want to make money, and they don’t care if anyone reads them or what they think of them. And in the middle are authors who want people to buy _and_ read their books. How do they feel about readers who read their books without buying them (because they borrowed them from the library or bought or were given a used copy)? How do they feel about people who buy but never read them? I’m fairly sure that my wife’s books for Scholastic are predominantly bought by libraries. Works for her. The economics of publishing being what they are, short books for junior high students would seldom get bought otherwise. Who’d want to pay a reasonably high cover price for a book you can read in an hour or two and would never want to read again? However they are great for school essay projects in history and English. I would guess many writers get their charge from the sale and the check. Unless you do book tours, you are unlikely to run into people reading your book. Same for music. My father-in-law is a composer, and after he got a (small) check from You Tube, we searched and found that there would videos of bands playing his compositions on there. That was unexpected and made him quite happy. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/57 "2020-04-01T08:45:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Bad elevator pitch: My book talks about all the fascinating things that happened to me as a Chartered Public Accountant. > > You get the picture. That’s a bad elevator pitch because it doesn’t give the reader any notion of WHY being a CPA might be fascinating. I’m sure Martin Kihn, author of “House of Lies: How Management Consultants Steal Your Watch and Then Tell You the Time” made money of the book and subsequent series on “House of Lies” on Showtime. But I’m also sure his pitch was better than “My book talks about all the fascinating things that happened to me as a management consultant at Booz Allen Hamilton.” A better elevator pitch might be "My book talks about all the fascinating things that happened to me as a Chartered Public Accountant at Global Big-4 professional services Ernst & Young…working for famous drug lord clients. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/58 "2020-04-01T09:49:14Z")
I think anyone who has a burning desire to write… and can write well… will find a market. But writing well is a craft - it has to be learned and practiced, like any other craft. Most good writers have spent years constantly writing large quantities of text, and carefully and deliberately honing and developing their ability to write. It needs both talent and practice to write well. If someone hasn’t done much writing, it’s almost always a mistake to think they can sit down and immediately write a book that will be enjoyable for readers. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/60 "2020-04-01T15:24:37Z")
I seem to recall that J.K. Rowling was turned down by 22 publishers before she found one. So much for standing out from the slush pile. A friend of mine whose SIL would like to be a novelist (right now he is a teacher) quoted me what I assume is a standard aphorism: You can’t make a living from writing, but you might make a killing. The most I ever made from any of the three books I have published came when I sent the publisher camera-ready copy and he sent a cheque for what their typesetting costs would have been (a couple thou). ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/61 "2020-04-01T15:41:32Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > A friend of mine whose SIL would like to be a novelist (right now he is a teacher) quoted me what I assume is a standard aphorism: You can’t make a living from writing, but you might make a killing. That’s definitely not true anymore, though, in these days of self publishing and ebooks. Without even trying hard, I can name at least 20 people (including myself) who make a healthy living writing books. It’s mostly genre stuff (romance, sci-fi, fantasy, etc.) and I can almost guarantee you’ve never heard of any of them, but they’re making anywhere from high five to seven figures. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590/62 "2020-04-01T17:55:04Z")
I have made very small amounts of money from my writing. I used to tell people that all the money I’d made from all, my writing wouldn’t make up one mortgage payment. I think I’ve progressed to the point where my cumulative earnings would surpass one mortgage payment. Maybe even two. But my mortgage is all paid off, so it’s not so relevant. I’m kinda hoping that _Lost Wonderland_ will change that, and will be the first book I won’t have to beg indy booksellers to put on their shelves. But I’m not counting on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-make-money-by-writing-books-anymore/770590.md?page=4)