# Does anybody remember this shorthand for "and"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2026, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604 "2026-06-03T23:32:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/1 "2026-06-03T23:32:44Z")
I’m posting this because I need validation. Lol I showed this to two of my co-workers and they have no idea. When handwriting, you could use this for “and”. It’s NOT “&”. Imagine a “+” sign. Now imagine a line that connects the left point to the bottom point. Since it’s handwriting, it’s going to be more curvy as opposed to sharp corners. But that’s basically it. Do you remember ever using this as shorthand for “and”? ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/2 "2026-06-03T23:34:47Z")
No. Is there an example you can post? This sounds like a modified ampersand. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/3 "2026-06-03T23:37:20Z")
This thing? [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Ampersand_Handwriting_2.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Ampersand_Handwriting_2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/4 "2026-06-03T23:38:41Z")
Yes, I still use it, but I only hand write notes to myself these days. It pretty much looks like an upside down 4. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/5 "2026-06-03T23:39:53Z")
Yes, an upside down 4 is the perfect description. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/6 "2026-06-03T23:41:03Z")
Sounds like a plus sign drawn without lifting your pen from the paper. Here’s someone else asking the same question. https://embed.reddit.com/r/ENGLISH/comments/1n2phys/and_symbol_that_isnt_the_ampersand/?embed=true&ref_source=embed&ref=share > [@susan](#): > > This sounds like a modified ampersand Not really. Ampersand is the Latin word _Et_ in fancy handwriting. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/7 "2026-06-03T23:41:17Z")
Found this with a quick google search, but can’t find a pic: **Handwriting Abbreviation for “And”** : People often write a shorthand symbol for the word “and” that resembles an upside-down “4” (or a cross without lifting the pen). This is an informal variation of the ampersand \(\&\). [[1](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/e0s8ym/where_did_the_upside_down_4_symbol_for_and_come/)] ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/8 "2026-06-03T23:43:36Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > This thing? Whenever I hand-write stuff there’s a good chance that I’ll still use that (the “This thing”). ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/9 "2026-06-03T23:45:05Z")
Really, yes, I perceive them as looking structurally similar as handwritten. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2026, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/10 "2026-06-03T23:52:06Z")
@Dewey_Finn nailed it. I remember reading and writing that symbol often as a kid or college student. I’d instantly recognize what it meant. On the very rare occasions I put pen to paper I now use the simplified ampersand that is sort of a backwards 3 with a vertical line through it. The complicated curlicue ampersand & that resembles a simplified treble clef is far more elaborate than anything I’ve ever written by hand. Whether printed or cursive. Going back to the OP @Grrr I’m wondering about the ages or educations of the cow-orkers who don’t recognize that symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/11 "2026-06-04T00:06:34Z")
Yeah, they were young. (At least for this crowd) One I would guess mid 30s and the other one in his 20s. I kind of thought it was an age thing myself. I would imagine younger people not knowing it due to people not writing as much with pen anymore. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/12 "2026-06-04T00:11:50Z")
The little loop helps to distinguish it from a “t”. I still use it. I can’t draw a decent ampersand. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/13 "2026-06-04T00:23:52Z")
I would consider it a common simplified ampersand. The only reason I don’t use it as much is simply that I don’t write things as much. If I’m quickly writing something down where an ampersand is needed, I use this symbol. (I do occasionally take the time to write an actual ampersand when writing neatly, because it’s fun.) I also know the the backwards 3 with a line through it (or just on top and bottom) like a dollar sign. That one takes longer. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/14 "2026-06-04T00:28:55Z")
Here’s a bunch of them: [![](https://shadycharacters.co.uk/image/Q204gm0XJj-256.jpeg) ](https://shadycharacters.co.uk/image/Q204gm0XJj-256.jpeg) I had to write it down, since I didn’t remember what mine looked like, but mine is the sixth one in the top row. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/15 "2026-06-04T01:09:10Z")
So is mine. I wouldn’t think anybody else would know because when would they see such a casual handwriting use even in the old days? Anyone who loves words and type should find a copy of Keith Houston’s [Shady Characters: The Secret Life of Punctuation, Symbols, and Other Typographical Marks](https://www.amazon.com/Shady-Characters-Punctuation-Symbols-Typographical/dp/0393349721/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1EZGSXNQKXXK8&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.iwgfZHNMmzm-0D0XLv0ry8p7ZOoFWEAeXZbnro4tt_Ua56AZ1foKCbKvYaXPuB8jGAudhrW9OI6TkH5bSqXjK6EXrXsZoSCTbY0XAqV-vCZFf8gzEHmyFe6FYMtcqhMNoj_nleU0VfAgb9qJ2LZn_CVq3idPt4EDaCdwisrVcKgM7Nw9RAFU5r2vmm8c0CCWcy1rnOUizsvbKhz0SjNdJwAkIaTto2v3r6NYxhvxhTQ.9KrDbaFJ886aT8oHL_fsaXln8Le6VPA32fYvG2mQrVQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=shady+characters&qid=1780535106&sprefix=shady+characters%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-1). Sounds dull but I found every page a delight. That includes the chapter on the ampersand. Yes, there’s a whole chapter to be said on that one character, which includes lots of images of its use throughout history. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/16 "2026-06-04T01:13:37Z")
I used to write that character for “and” and still do on occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Tabco](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tabco/32/7644_2.png) [@Tabco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabco)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/17 "2026-06-04T01:15:56Z")
I’ve seen it plenty while in school (graduated HS in 2003), both from teachers and classmates. I favored the backwards 3 with vertical line mentioned above, myself. I didn’t see the traditional & symbol in handwriting very often at all. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/18 "2026-06-04T01:20:30Z")
Yep. I got marked down for using it in school on the regular. I was one of those kids whose hand just couldn’t move fast enough enough to keep up with the thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/19 "2026-06-04T01:29:00Z")
I still use that 180-degree-rotated 4, flipped vertically. ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2026, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604/20 "2026-06-04T01:42:29Z")
I use the traditional form &, which kind of looks like a backwards treble clef sign to me. I am very used to it, since the ampersand is very common in the programming languages that I taught. When you write it on a whiteboard hundreds of times, it’s easy to do. That’s one instance that you wouldn’t want to confuse students (or your cow-orkers) with a variant. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anybody-remember-this-shorthand-for-and/1030604.md?page=2)