# Does anyone actually support Affirmative Action? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2000, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188 "2000-10-08T22:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skwerl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Skwerl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skwerl)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/1 "2000-10-08T22:03:28Z")
I’m doing a project on Affirmative Action. I wasn’t sure where to post this, but I figured it may become a debate. Anyway, I went to [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) and did a search for books on Affirmative Action, and, somewhat to my surpise, most of them were against it (which happens to be the side I’m on). Is it generally supported by Democrats/liberals, who just choose not to write too many books? Or does it really not have very many supporters? Does that mean its end is nearing? ---
**Author:** ![Fernmeldetruppe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fernmeldetruppe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fernmeldetruppe)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/2 "2000-10-08T22:44:14Z")
You may want to widen your search (try Yahoo) and narrow your topic (it’s huge). This page could give you a start: [Errant Link Deleted by David B at poster’s request. See below for correction.] I don’t think the issue is a black and white as you propose. You may want to read GEN Colin Powell’s comments at the Rebublican National Convention this year for at least one Republican’s view. [Edited by David B on 10-08-2000 at 06:29 PM] ---
**Author:** ![Fernmeldetruppe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fernmeldetruppe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fernmeldetruppe)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/3 "2000-10-08T22:46:12Z")
Sorry. Try this: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/affirm/affirm.htm](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/affirm/affirm.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Grendel69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7bcc69/32.png) [@Grendel69](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grendel69)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/4 "2000-10-08T23:29:30Z")
Also, if possbile, try to dig up any books that review the Supreme Court’s stance on AA. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/5 "2000-10-08T23:32:17Z")
Being a minority, I’m never really sure whether any of the jobs I’ve held I owe to affirmative action, except for the first (which I know was) and when I’ve worked for small companies - too small for the rules to apply. Besides that, I would say it’s impossible except for when I look at companies small enough to fly under the radar screen but large enough to have at least 50 or so employees - they’re almost always overwhelmingly white (with some Asian, from time to time). Given that, it’s tough to be against what appears to be the only reason you’re let through the door, if you’re a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/6 "2000-10-08T23:50:04Z")
Pantom not very good logic there:) If white people are not going to hire a minority then they sure aren’t going to hire one just because affirmitave action said so. However since there are more white people than other(hence the term minority) then they are going to be more white than other. I dissagree with affirmitave action because its racist and I think racism is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fernmeldetruppe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fernmeldetruppe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fernmeldetruppe)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/7 "2000-10-09T00:06:22Z")
Also realize that many people equate AA with quotas. This need not be true. AA may be a simple as a company having policy of ensuring that jobs are not olny posted in areas where only white males are likely to see that posting. The company may then track how many minorities apply for those jobs. This company could have a successful AA program even if no minorities are even hired over the short term. Over the long term, this marketing should create a more diverse company. We should keep in mind that most company’s programs don’t just focus on racial minorities. The diasbled, veterns, over-40, females and other categories are also protected classes whose participation in all levels of a corporation must be tracked. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/8 "2000-10-09T00:17:21Z")
I don’t know what most people think, but I am usually against it. I say “usually” because Affirmative Action can mean many different things; it’s a political word, and is therefore exremely ambiguous. I am against: Giving anybody an opportunity based upon anything other than their merit and/or qualification. I am in favor of: Laws which prevent discrimination based on something that has nothing to do with a person’s merit and/or qualification. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/9 "2000-10-09T00:17:31Z")
Well, I think that affirmative action has more supporters than might be apparent…The ones against it seem to yell more loudly than those in favor of it. I, for one, am in favor of it. And, **Asmodean** , I think your statement that “affirmative action is racism and therefore is wrong” is seductive…But very wrong itself. Yes, in a perfect world, there would be no need for affirmative action because everyone would be treated equally and would grow up with equal advantages. Unfortunately, that ain’t the world we currently inhabit…not by a long shot. So, arguments against affirmative action end up being arguments for a status quo whereby the inequalities that clearly do exist just get perpetuated. (It’s like arguments for all other sorts of eutopian schemes…It would indeed be eutopia, but only if we were already living in eutopia to begin with!) Having said that, there are certainly better and worse ways to practice affirmative action. For most people, “affirmative action = quotas” but, in reality, affirmative action more often means things like making an effort to recruit more minority candidates, not to hire a certain percentage of minorities. I think that is usually the best way to go, although I am not sure one can always entirely get away from some sort of quotas…Sometimes, things don’t happen until you really make some sort of specific mandates. By the way, the reason some companies these days are embracing diversity is that they believe it brings them a competitive advantage, i.e., that if you want to market your products to people from a variety of different cultures and subcultures of society, you’ll do better if you have a wider diversity of people in your company. ---
**Author:** ![Fernmeldetruppe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fernmeldetruppe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fernmeldetruppe)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/10 "2000-10-09T00:31:00Z")
So far, we have: -No one agrees was Affirmative Action is. (So if we could agree on a definition, we might get a better concensus. This is actually what IS going on inside and outside of the government right now.) -It’s all about money. (I should make that my sig, jshore.) ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/11 "2000-10-09T03:25:05Z")
When dealing with an economic matter, you bet it’s all about money. And Asmodean, they are indeed going to hire someone because affirmative action said so. To wit: I was hired many, many years ago to a large company because of a court decision that concluded that they had engaged in blatant discrimination in the hiring and promoting of minorities to management positions. One of the things they were ordered to do was to make an effort to hire minorities by recruiting minority-owned employment agencies to advertise for positions. Which is how I got hired. Since this job, I’ve never been in a position to be hired as a direct result of a court decision, which is really the only way you’ll ever know for sure whether AA was behind the decision to hire you. But large, regulated companies have much larger numbers of minorities in their ranks than smaller companies that can get away with it. And I’m sure it’s only because they can get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/12 "2000-10-09T07:50:06Z")
Asmodean is right. Affirmative action is racism. So what if it is for a ‘good cause", that can be used to justify anything. No, racism is wrong, and should not be tolerated, no matter how "good’ the “cause”. Now, EEO, ie colorblind hiring, is a GOOD thing. How can MORE racism 'erase the errors of the past"? It’s like killing to end war. The mistakes of the past are undoable by even G-d, so why do we think we can succeed? All AA does is start NEW racists who will complain “she just got the job becuase she was —”, and, they will be right. Now, “outreach programs”, where a company advertises in new sources/areas, which often have a high concentration of minorities, is NOT affirmative action. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/13 "2000-10-09T13:05:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\*Now, “outreach programs”, where a company advertises in new sources/areas, which often have a high concentration of minorities, is NOT affirmative action. \*\* Actually, that’s pretty much **exactly** what affirmative action is, or at least what it is supposed to be. Affirmative action is not synonymous with quotas, and anyone who thinks it is is, well, a dunce. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/14 "2000-10-09T13:12:30Z")
Ah, yes. I love policies like Affirmitive Action, because it solidifies my belief in the stupidity of PC policy. Affirmitive Action IS racism - and favoritism - towards the lesser group(s) against the larger. So, the inequality of the policy reveals itself when a company is forced to hire or promote less qualified individuals in the sense of something called “fairness.” So why is no one being fair to the company that provides the jobs in the first place? What’s fair about a company being run poorly due to it being forced to hire certain people based on criteria that have nothing to do with ability? I got into some serious arguments with femminist types, who use the logic that if women represent roughly 50% of the population, then they should be represented in about 50% of all types of businesses, neglecting or negating the facts: not everyone is motivated or skilled for all types of work, and that 100% of the child-bearing population are women and some actually choose to not work to raise the tykes. Ugh. So the answer I got to ending Affirmitive Action: not until the numbers are equal. I guess we’ll always have it. ---
**Author:** ![thewiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@thewiz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thewiz)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/15 "2000-10-09T15:04:39Z")
Let’s define affirmative action as the targeting of a specific class of people to reach a pre-defined level of diversity. Affirmative action classes can be blacks, hispanics, women, gays, etc. depending on what class of people you want to target. The problem I have is that affirmative action, by definition, is a means to an end. Does the end justify the means? Well, it really depends on what end you want to accomplish and who gets to define that end. Here’s an example: In city X, 20% of the population is black, 10% is asian, 10% is hispanic, and 60% is white. Most affirmative action programs will define as their primary goal to have an orgranization’s members reflect the population. Therefore, every school, workplace, and club should match the percentage above. If your organization doesn’t match the percentages, you are branded as discriminatory and must therefore implement all the programs offered in some of the other posts to meet the percentages above. The biggest problem I see with affirmative action is determining what group gets to set the goals and what those goals should be. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/16 "2000-10-09T16:50:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, “outreach programs”, where a company advertises in new sources/areas, which often have a high concentration of minorities, is NOT affirmative action. _ **BZZZZT!** _ I know that Phil already answered this, but the point needs to be made (apparently again and again) because some people simply like to equate Affirmative Action with quotas in the face of the historical evidence that says the opposite. Did you know that the very first AA programs were specifically _not_ quota systems and _were_ specifically designed to be _outreach_ programs? Quotas were a late-comer to the AA situation. They were initially imposed by courts when minorities sued because they found that some outreach programs were only PR stunts by some communities or corporations that had no intention of following up on their advertising. It may be comforting to simply ignore reality and claim that Affirmative Action is racist. I have seen a couple of posters to this board (none of whom have posted yet to this thread) whine that they have been “descriminated against” by AA. To the extent that quotas have been employed in attempts to implement AA, they _may_ have an argument (or they may not–there have been quota judgments in the 70’s and early 80’s that were quite fair, there are fewer now). However, linking AA and quotas allows one to simply ignore the valid outreach programs when they are identified as AA “because AA is racist”. I don’t think that sort of illogic should be left unchallenged on this board. The very earliest AA (using “Affirmative Action” as the name of the effort) was a program to encourage businesses to make a direct effort to recruit and employ minority workers in areas where the companies had been simply ignoring the opportunity to do that sort of recruiting. That sort of AA continues to be used successfully, today. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/17 "2000-10-09T17:06:03Z")
In the sense that AA is an outreach program, my question is: an outreach to _where_? Where does AA reach that ‘normal’ job solicitation does not? I would think that most firms have a reasonably good idea where to look for the best candidates to fill their open positions, and I would think that good employers would look for the best candidates regardless of where they come from. _confused_ ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/18 "2000-10-09T17:09:17Z")
Although the quotas don’t get forced on employers very often, they do color the decisions of management when deciding who to hire, promote, or let go. I worked one place that had a layoff. Everybody in one department had to be let go, except for the three minorities who were working in that department, who were retrained and moved to new positions. I was friends with the family of someone in management, and I found out through them that they didn’t lay off the minorities because they fired one once before and the guy threatened a lawsuit, saying it was racially motivated. They were scared of having to deal with that again. In that case, nobody was really hurt by it directly, as they originally weren’t planning on keeping anybody in that department so it’s not that some white guy missed a chance to keep his job so a black guy could. The company still had to pay to retrain three people and deal with the consequences of them working in jobs they initially weren’t considered suitable for. I’ve seen similar things in other jobs - unless you are in HR you don’t know what the hiring practices are, but you sure notice who gets fired. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/19 "2000-10-09T17:48:16Z")
**thewiz:** \*Here’s an example: In city X, 20% of the population is black, 10% is asian, 10% is hispanic, and 60% is white. Most affirmative action programs will define as their primary goal to have an orgranization’s members reflect the population. Therefore, every school, workplace, and club should match the percentage above. If your organization doesn’t match the percentages, you are branded as discriminatory and must therefore implement all the programs offered in some of the other posts to meet the percentages above. \* This is a common misunderstanding. Affirmative action policies do not involve quotas. Even court-ordered “consent decrees” (see below), which do mandate hiring quotas, do not demand that employers hire minorities according to their proportion in the general population but according to their representation in the **qualified applicant pool.** The court cannot get on your case for never hiring a female chemical engineer, say, even if somebody sues you for discrimination, if you can show that there are no women with chemical engineering degrees in your qualified applicant pool. Some more facts from the [Coalition Against Bigotry and Bias](http://www.bbcc.ctc.edu/~webb/cabb.htm#9): > [@](#): > > Affirmative action constitutes a good faith effort by employers to address past and/or present discrimination through a variety of specific, results-oriented procedures. This is a step beyond equal opportunity laws that simply ban discriminatory practices. > > What exactly constitutes affirmative action? Employers MAY use four types of affirmative action: > > - aggressive recruiting to expand the pool of candidates for job openings; > - evaluating and updating selection tools and criteria to ensure their relevance to job performance; > - revising traditional measures of merit to more fully recognize talent and performance under varying conditions; - establishing goals and timetables for hiring underrepresented groups – this is the least common and least understood method. [see below] > > Doesn’t affirmative action result in quotas? > > No. It is easy to confuse affirmative action with “consent decrees,” which are court-mandated quotas imposed by judges on specific institutions after years of proven failure to end discrimination. Ending affirmative action would not affect consent decrees and the associated quotas. > > Beyond the confusion with consent decrees, it’s worth noting that affirmative action plans do not impose quotas, but rather seek to increase the pool of qualified applicants through “good faith” efforts. > > Isn’t discrimination in employment a thing of the past? > > No, not by any means. According to _Affirmative Action Review: Report to the President,_ a 1995 federal report to the President on affirmative action, “Blatant discrimination is a continuing problem in the labor market.” > > The report cites various controlled “audit” studies in which white and minority (or male and female) job seekers were > given similar résumés and sent to the same set of firms to apply for work. > > These studies routinely found that employers are less likely to interview or offer a job to minority applicants or > women, even when their qualifications match those of whites or men vying for the same positions. > > The federal Glass Ceiling Commission – convened by former president George Bush and former Senator Robert Dole – issued a study report that notes: > > - White men, who comprise 43 percent of the workforce, have 95 percent of senior management positions, and 80 percent of tenured professorships, because of an ongoing “pattern of injustice.” > - The same study found that “serious barriers to advancement remain” for women and minorities, including: > > - "persistent stereotyping; > - “erroneous beliefs that ‘no qualified women or minorities are out there;’” and > - “fear of change.” ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188/20 "2000-10-09T17:57:39Z")
Let’s talk about Afirmative Action. When I think of it…simply because I’ve spent much of my life around universities, as an employee and activist. Is bringing in people based on test scores. This is very different from employment based affirmative action, but since the OP didn’t specify which, I’ll jump in with my 2 cents. At UCDavis a study was performed about 4-5 years ago. It found that people let into Medical school under afirmative action a) not only performed better in Medical school with grades but also b)more likely became doctors and more likely became doctors in minority areas. My question is does anyone think that simple test scores are really the best way to let people into school? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-actually-support-affirmative-action/36188.md?page=2)