# Does anyone believe that prayer works? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780 "2005-02-18T20:01:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/41 "2005-02-22T19:12:27Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > No, it isn’t. An _ad hominem_ remark is one in which the _person_ is denounced. Exactly. You claim the events are “nothing short of amazing”, yet your only argument to support that statement is to declare that those who disagree are “foolish”. That’s an _ad hominem_ argument. The argument consists entirely of calling your opponent a name. > [@](#): > > Again, not true. I have referred people to Mueller’s biography, which duly records numerous such experiences. This is NOT the same as saying that I _can’t_ describe even one. No, telling someone to read a book does not constitute describing an event. The _author_ of the book may have described them, but you did not. > [@](#): > > In the interest of fighting your distortion though, I refer you this snapshot of [some of Mueller’s experiences](http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/Mueller.Answers.to.Prayer.html). I do this with a measure of hesitation, since I know that hardened skeptics will inevitably say “Mueller must have been lying,” “Well, that’s nothing special,” or others words to those effects. What’s a “hardened skeptic”? The word “hardened” implies an attachment to old ideas and an unwillingness to consider new ones. Yet a skeptic is exactly the opposite, questioning traditional ideas that non-skeptics accept blindly. From what I’ve read in the excerpts you provided, it’s quite unneccesary to suggest that Mueller was lying, because nothing extraordinary occurred. He seems to mainly talk about the generosity of people who helped him with his project. Is it unbelievable that people are generous? No, I don’t think so. Is it a miracle? I certainly _hope_ it doesn’t require a miracle for people to be generous. I have a little more faith in humanity than that. I don’t know - is that the “amazing series of coincidences” to which you refer? It’s hard to tell, when you refuse to give us even a _hint_ about which events you’re talking about, and just glibly refer us to the book. If that’s not it, I invite you…no, I _beseech_ you to tell us to which events you _are_ referring. I also believe you have some severe misconceptions about what a skeptic is. Being a skeptic does not mean one is emotionless or cynical. Your bias is encapsulated in your assertion that a skeptic would say, “Well, that’s nothing special”. That’s absolutely false. _Special_ does not mean _supernatural_. Just because one doesn’t believe that an event occured via the supernatural, doesn’t mean one believes it to be any less special. It is quite possible for sublime events to occur _without_ the necessity of appealing to otherworldy forces. > [@](#): > > To say that these are fairly ordinary experiences would be simply absurd though. It’s absurd when people donate money to an orphanage? Sounds ordinary to _me_. Nice, yes. Beyond coincidence, no. I _do_ think prayer worked for Mueller, but not in the sense that you do. I have no doubt that prayer helped put him in the _state of mind_ that allowed him to accomplish his goals. But motivated people accomplishing their goals is hardly supernatural. > [@](#): > > It reflects a mindset in which evidence is evaluated in light of one’s desired conclusion, rather than _vice versa_. I don’t suppose you recognize any irony in that statement, do you? I don’t have a problem with people believing whatever they like, but when you cast aspersions on others just because they don’t _share_ your belief, then I do have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/42 "2005-02-22T21:13:46Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Of course, there are other methods of transferring emotional baggage when dealing with problems, and they work, too. But yer Great Sky Fairy technique works, too, for those who can buy such bullshit. Ya gotta love the openmindedness of this board sometimes. :rolleyes: * * * Prayer works. I’ve seen it. I have no proof of this other than anecdotal evidence, which I know usually has no place here in GD, but it’s all I’ve got. Once when I was a young teenager, I was out riding with my dad on his motorcycle. He’d always been one of those people who liked to make bets with himself to see how far he could get when the needle on the gas gauge was pointing to empty. One day we ran out of gas and had to pull over on I-495. This being before either of us had cellphones and several miles away from the nearest exit, we prayed. I remember specifically my dad saying, “Lord, we just need a half a gallon to get to the next exit.” Moments later a pickup pulls over. The guy asks what’s wrong, my dad tells him we’re out of gas. He says, “Well, I’ve only got a half a gallon. Think that’ll be enough?” Coincidence? Maybe, but I don’t think so. If nothing else, my dad isn’t quite so daring with the gas gauge anymore. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/43 "2005-02-22T21:25:29Z")
I’m curious: If God intervenes in something as mundane as giving someone a half-gallon of gas so they don’t have to walk 1/2 mile, why doesn’t he intervene in more profound matters, like the suffering and death of the innocent, for example? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/44 "2005-02-22T21:52:59Z")
Amen, **blowero**. Ha! A pun! The problem I have with the fundamentalist Christian view of prayer I grew up with is exactly that. I grew up with stories of the “I lost my mitten and my dad was going to beat me for losing it, so I prayed and lo and behold, there was my mitten, I know God answered my prayer” variety. To me, these were always fake, and showed a shallow faith. I do believe that prayer can be beneficial because you use the prayer/meditation/whatever to deal with the situation rather than due to any supernatural explanation. By elucidating it, you analyze and internalize and rationalize it, enabling yourself to come to grips with that situation. I’ve always felt it’s a little unfortunate that the “shallow faith prayers” above prayed rather than using the brain God gave them. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/45 "2005-02-23T20:05:41Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I’m curious: If God intervenes in something as mundane as giving someone a half-gallon of gas so they don’t have to walk 1/2 mile, why doesn’t he intervene in more profound matters, like the suffering and death of the innocent, for example? How do you know He doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/46 "2005-02-23T20:07:54Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > How do you know He doesn’t? Because innocent people suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/47 "2005-02-23T21:26:35Z")
So because some people suffer it proves that God never saves anyone? Sorry, but that’s kind of weak. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/48 "2005-02-23T21:40:04Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Moments later a pickup pulls over. The guy asks what’s wrong, my dad tells him we’re out of gas. He says, “Well, I’ve only got a half a gallon. Think that’ll be enough?” So, what do you think the outcome would have been if you had not prayed? Or if your dad had not specifically asked for a 1/2 gallon? Pash ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/49 "2005-02-23T21:40:05Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > So because some people suffer it proves that God never saves anyone? Sorry, but that’s kind of weak. So then you would have us believe that God chose not to intervene in such matters as the Holocaust and the Stalinist Purges, yet decided to get involved in the matter of providing you with 1/2 gallon of gas? Let’s say you’re correct, and God chooses to save _some_ people and not others. I’m interested in hearing your explanation as to why 6 million Jews wouldn’t be at the top of God’s “to do” list. I can’t wait to hear your non-“weak” argument. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/50 "2005-02-23T23:10:40Z")
Regarding prayer, I have always remembered Alexandr Solzhenitsyn’s classic novel “ONE DAY IN THE LIFE OF IVAN DENISOVITCH”: -this is when Ivan is in despair, and his (Baptist) friend attempts to comfort him, he (the Baptist) says something like: “Brother Ivan , do not pray for food, or a warm bed…instead, pray that God will grant you understanding” Frankly, that kind of prayer is more honerable than asking God for various favors. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/51 "2005-02-24T03:46:45Z")
> [@Pashnish Ewing](#): > > So, what do you think the outcome would have been if you had not prayed? Or if your dad had not specifically asked for a 1/2 gallon? I don’t know. I just think it’s interesting that he got what he asked for. > [@blowero](#): > > So then you would have us believe that God chose not to intervene in such matters as the Holocaust and the Stalinist Purges, yet decided to get involved in the matter of providing you with 1/2 gallon of gas? Let’s say you’re correct, and God chooses to save _some_ people and not others. I’m interested in hearing your explanation as to why 6 million Jews wouldn’t be at the top of God’s “to do” list. I can’t wait to hear your non-“weak” argument. I don’t claim to know why God does the things He does. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/52 "2005-02-24T05:44:02Z")
[notebooks of Lazarus Long] If you pray hard enough, water will run uphill. How hard? Why, hard enough to make water run uphill, of course! [/notebooks of Lazarus Long] ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/53 "2005-02-24T09:38:57Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > I don’t claim to know why God does the things He does. If God is utterly inscrutable to you, how do you know He’s good? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/54 "2005-02-24T14:11:43Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > If God is utterly inscrutable to you, how do you know He’s good? What has that got to do with this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/55 "2005-02-24T14:46:03Z")
Okay, what does “prayer works” mean to you? If I toggle on an electric light switch, and “it works,” the lights in that room will come on. Are you seeking a solely mechanistic criterion? Because nobody thinks God is a prayer-granting robot. On the other hand, there is a non-religious context in which “that prayer was answered” has a legitimate meaning: law. At common law and still in many jurisdictions, litigants and their counsel “pray” the court for motions, decisions, etc., which may or may not be granted, according to the judge’s understanding of the law, justice, mercy, etc. To suspend the impact of a minor offense in North Carolina, one offers to the judge a Prayer for Judgment to be Continued, “asks for a PJC” – the equivalent of “adjournment in contemplation of dismissal” in New York law. Using the court metaphor, for some prayers to be answered and others not might make sense. And because each is taken in the context it’s offered, there’s no comparison. For God to grant the elder **Lord Ashtar** a half gallon of gas, while denying someone’s saintly but cancer-ridden 80-year-old grandmother surcease of pain, then does not violate our sense of fairness, because each prayer is being reviewed in the specific context of the circumstances in which it’s being offered. It becomes a metaphysical variant on the maxim that “bad cases make good law.” Finally, what I suggested in my first post here but seems to have been treated largely as a throwaway line, there is one real sense in which prayer definitely “works” – because “prayer” in the sense in which religious people mean it is not limited to petition and intercession for particular things or events. It can be adoration, contrition, communion, meditation, etc. And I’m living proof that prayer changes the individual. There are others on this board who can say likewise. We’re talking about interior emotional and self-image transformation, visible through exterior changes in behavior. And in that sense, prayer can be demonstrated to work. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/56 "2005-02-24T18:55:59Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Using the court metaphor, for some prayers to be answered and others not might make sense. I agree that it _might_ make sense, but I gave some specific examples where it does _not_ (or at least appears not to). > [@](#): > > And because each is taken in the context it’s offered, there’s no comparison. But why is there no comparison? Surely God does not want you to be a mindless automaton, saying “Thy will be done” even when the most horrible atrocity occurs. I mean, it is allowed to _think_ about these things, isn’t it? Because, as I asked earlier, if one blindly accepts every decision by God as _automatically_ correct, then by what standard are you judging God to be good? Surely God isn’t only good by definition. Now, I understand the argument that God _chooses_ not to intervene because he wants us to have free will. But then when one begins claiming that God _does_ intervene in some cases, it opens the door to asking: Why then does he choose _not_ to intervene in _other_ cases where it quite obviously would be beneficial? > [@](#): > > For God to grant the elder **Lord Ashtar** a half gallon of gas, while denying someone’s saintly but cancer-ridden 80-year-old grandmother surcease of pain, then does not violate our sense of fairness, because each prayer is being reviewed in the specific context of the circumstances in which it’s being offered. It becomes a metaphysical variant on the maxim that “bad cases make good law.” Granted. But then what exactly is the “context” in which the Holocaust was judged to be a good thing? Or for that matter, what context makes your “grandmother” example a good thing? I mean, surely you can understand that I when I ask why God would grant 1/2 gallon of gas over the lives of 6 million innocent people, that “He moves in mysterious ways” is not a particularly convincing argument. How do you justify the fact that God gave us the ability to reason, with the seeming fact that God’s actions (or lack of) often appear unreasonable? > [@](#): > > Finally, what I suggested in my first post here but seems to have been treated largely as a throwaway line, there is one real sense in which prayer definitely “works” – because “prayer” in the sense in which religious people mean it is not limited to petition and intercession for particular things or events. It can be adoration, contrition, communion, meditation, etc. And I’m living proof that prayer changes the individual. There are others on this board who can say likewise. We’re talking about interior emotional and self-image transformation, visible through exterior changes in behavior. And in that sense, prayer can be demonstrated to work. I absolutely agree, and I said as much in my first post. It is that second definition of “works”, where God ostensibly intervenes to change the outcome of events, that I have trouble understanding. I hope you don’t think my purpose is to denigrate - it’s not. I’m just asking some tough questions because I figure that you and/or Lord Ashtar must have considered these things before, and I’m always curious to know how people reconcile such things. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/57 "2005-02-24T19:03:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Does anyone believe that prayer works? I do. Not always the way anyone expects or perhaps wants, but I believe it can have an effect. Part of my personal faith is that God’s ways and means are far beyond anything I can understand, and that perhaps something that happens in response to my prayer was ordained by Him a long time ago, as part of a specific purpose. **blowero** asks some really good questions. I’m not sure how to answer them, but I know there are so many factors involved that you could argue both the presence of God and the lack of presence very effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/58 "2005-02-24T20:33:24Z")
**Blowero** , what you’re defining is the Problem of Evil, which is one of the oldest questions in theology and philosophy, and I’ve never seen anything that even comes close to being a reasonable answer to it from a theist of any sort. The three comments I’d have to make go hand in hand, and make me non-uncomfortable enough with the issue to survive in my beliefs (and the double negative is quite intentional; I’m **not** happy with the answer, but it’s what works for me until I can get a better take on it). First, you are, I think, familiar with my take on _faith_ as a special case of _trust_, not totally susceptible to rational analysis. If I have trust or faith in someone, I feel that I can count on them, to their ability, to treat me decently. and any apparent injury is not intended and/or part of a greater positive. (The analogy in another thread to a parent watching his/her child get inoculated, suffering momentary pain to a greater good of protection from severe illness, is the sort of thing I’m speaking of here.) If I have faith in God, then I am compelled to believe that He permits evil to happen for good, and ultimately beneficial, reasons. Second is hand in hand with the above, and honestly throws itself on the “mysterious ways” cliché. His understanding of what is ultimately good may not be what I can perceive right at the moment. I suffered severe financial loss twice, once in dealing with and trying to provide for the three boys whom I consider my “sons,” and once in leaving my remunerative but intensely soul-killing state job. I personally consider that in the long run, I gained far more than I lost, in a measure of what matters to me personally, though from an accounting standpoint I’m in much worse condition than before. Then my first real encounter with death of a loved one was the massive heart attack that took away my beloved grandfather, when I was ten. And I still recall hearing from my aunt that the autopsy had revealed a severely metastatized cancer that would have taken him slowly and painfully, incapacitating the active and vibrant man who always had time for the little boy who was his only grandson. His sudden death, shocking as it was, took him without that soul-eating, lingering death he would have faced. That helped shape an early understanding that I’ve never lost, that sometimes one bad thing prevents a worse thing. Because I understand God to know all and to be working for the greater good of all, I can see, dimly, how He may have to work things in that way. None of the tsunami victims will die a lingering death of starvation, none of the kids who died in it will suffer abuse and molestation. Two children became friends in a shelter during one of the hurricanes; they will eventually grow to adulthood, marry, and have a child who will discover a cure for a dread disease when he in turn reaches his full potential. And so on. I don’t **know** this is true; I **trust** Him that it is. Third, and founded in Niccolo Macchiavelli of all people, is the idea that **we** are responsible as well. God has designed a world in which human beings are called on to **help each other through their problems** , and in doing so, achieve something beyond what a rubber-bumper world would allow them to become. I think this too was a part of His purpose, and while it doesn’t **justify** evil, it ameliorates the fact of its existence. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/59 "2005-02-24T20:35:52Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Do most people of faith believe that prayer works? It was an awareness of the utter uselessness of prayer (in any practical sense), that led me to free myself from the bonds of theism in the first place. Prayer: useless, pointless, no better than any other superstition. People will have all sorts of loony anecdotes about how their prayer for something worked, but there are people who say the same things regarding wishing upon stars, or chain letters, or other similar nonsense. > [@](#): > > I’m trying to accept that it was the power of prayer. Still, part of the intellectual in me believes it was the power of the lawyer and his negotiating skills. My money’s on the negotiating skills. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780/60 "2005-02-24T21:38:49Z")
Thanks for the reply, and not to harp on the point too much, but: > [@Polycarp](#): > > God has designed a world in which human beings are called on to **help each other through their problems** , and in doing so, achieve something beyond what a rubber-bumper world would allow them to become. I think this too was a part of His purpose, and while it doesn’t **justify** evil, it ameliorates the fact of its existence. I understand the argument. I’m not arguing that the presence of evil disproves God, but rather that, IF (and only if) one claims instances of God’s interference in the outcome of events on Earth, then that opens the door to the question of why God doesn’t interfere at _other_ times, and why God’s selection criterea would remain so indecipherable to us. So if I’m understanding correctly, there are two answers for theists: (1) There really is no such thing as intercessory prayer; prayer is really for the person doing the praying, or (2) You simply have faith that God is selecting wisely as to when to intervene, and implicitly trust God without ever questioning the outcome, because you have faith. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-believe-that-prayer-works/290780.md?page=2)