So God created us, knowing we were most likely going to be tortured for all eterninty (for rather dubious reasons- why does sin have to be paid off by going to hell as opposed to cleaning the chalkboard at lunch time or something?), give a statistically small portion of the world an “out” that is based on them believing a 2000 year old book that says some other guy died so that they didn’t have to (and somehow that also means they don’t have to go to hell).
And this guy is “love”?
So why are you in Great Debates if you’re not going to, you know, debate?
That would include your own interpretation, then. If you disagree with J.P. Moreland – if you believe his interpretation to be incorrect – then by virtue of your own claim, your objection doesn’t count.
In other words, you want an answer to your question, but not a reasonable one. You only want answers that reinforce the simplisitc characature of Chirstianity that you hold, so you can mock it. I see. :rolleyes:
Says who? Where are you getting this from?
Getting what from? That God will judge the world in righteousness, or that it’s possible to be greater in heaven? Well I’d have to use a few verses. For instance, if it was simply a matter of yes you’re in, no you’re not, then you wouldn’t need to judge righteously, you’d only need to judge based on one law being broken. Second, if you want to be greatest in the kingdom of God, be a servant to all. This can also be seen when the disciple asked to sit at the right hand of God, and was told he didn’t know what he was asking. “Better to be door keeper in the house of God, then to love in the house of sin”. Romans also says those without the law are judged as not having the law, so again, there are different judgments.
there are many belief systems of the world. all of which require faith and humans to keep them alive… each of these offer a different promise to the believer which in turn comforts the human about something that uneases them.
this is why so many people are concerned with heaven, and everlasting life… death is scary to some. they don’t want to think of it as a part of nature, so they elevate it’s outcome to ease their distress in the ending.
this is proven time and time again when someone asks,
“but don’t you want everlasting life?”
not really… with the promise of everlasting life, omes the dimished value of the life you lead now… many people have been quoted saying “who cares about the earth, god’s coming back soon, anyway.” and many people live a mundane life of servitude here on earth, because they believe that they will receive their rewards later.
honestly, if people want to believe in something, that’s fine. believe, but don’t walk around ticked off at those of us who choose a different route.
nobdoy has answers of confirmations of any of these things, for any of these beliefs… its all faith. for good reason.
not to mention a circular debate based on a book that’s been rewritten many times, and is constantly re-interperated on sundays.
And how could he really put people through such torture when he hasn’t presented himself in a manner that lets people believe in him without having blind faith? It would be one thing if he was standing before me telling me how things are and I rejected him with the full understanding that he’s God. It’s another to expect me to believe the words in a book called “The Bible” because some guy with a bad haircut on TV says I should.
The reason I don’t believe in God is not because I don’t agree with his wishes. It’s that the notion of God does not seem correct to me. If God exists, it’s His fault I don’t believe in Him. I would welcome Him with open arms if He presented Himself to me in a form other than “well, that tree over there was made by God so you should believe in Him.”
So I could understand God having a place for people who believe in God but chose not to follow His path. After all, they knew the rules and chose to disobey them. But for those of us who don’t believe and haven’t gotten the message, it seems an awful tough punishment for something that is a failure of God himself.
“not to mention a circular debate based on a book that’s been rewritten many times, and is constantly re-interperated on sundays.”
BS.
You can’t measure forever in a finite matter. It’s forever. Half of forever is forever.
Those who don’t believe that it’s wrong to fall short of an omnipotent being deserve to burn forever? Silly.
Here’s my view.
No matter how bad the torture is… Even if it’s just, say, eternal boredom, or an eternal paper cut, or something, it’s still unjust if it’s eternal. Why? Well, human crimes are finite. You just can’t convince me that any finite crime deserves infinite punishment.
And by what measure do you use to justify what is or isn’t just? And can we also say that criminals who’ve broken civil law should determine what the penalty will be, that they feel is just? And again, this statement is false:
“Those who don’t believe that it’s wrong to fall short of an omnipotent being deserve to burn forever”
You are assuming that people are damned because they fall short of God’s glory, this is not true. People are judged for the sins they commit. As for the judgment, I think the punishment should show how severe the crime is. You are saying the crime isn’t that bad, the punishment says it is. The plumb line is set, and it’s not dependant on how we feel.
I don’t see how a person who doesn’t believe in “your” God but lives a good life could be burned for it. Isn’t s/he still a good person?
Also, since no one’s really gonna find out the “Straight Dope” till you’re dead, if you’re an atheist here but change your mind afterwards if you find out God really exists, do you still fry?
And as far as hell is concerned, yeah there are people who deserve some torture. Serial killers, unrepentant child molesters, murderous tyrants, fun folks like that. I don’t want just plain retribution, I want something that will inspire empathy in them.
To paraphrase: Hanging’s too good for them! Burning’s too good for them! They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!
You are a nut.
And oh so gullible.
I think you are missing the point of eternal hell here Hayduke. Religion - any religion - was created, and required, in times before codified civil law to keep the population in control. All religions lay down laws and rules that make common sense and are naturally required to be followed to keep an orderly society.
Having said that, most people are asses and are not going to follow common sense rules if they are not enforced. That is the reason priests (or so-called religious authorities) had to create a supernatural fear to make the people fall in line. And the best way to do that was to mete out maximum punishment to those who didn’t follow - and what’s worse than eternal torture? Moreover, this plays right into the hands of those who promote blind faith - they don’t have to prove anything, and they can count on the fear of the unknown (present overwhelmingly in most humans).
Ergo, followers get lapdances from God in heaven; the rest get stakes up their ass from the Devil.
The Eastern Christian perspective on this subject is quite different, as the East never developed the legalistic view of salvation that the West did:
Hell is not the result of a vengeful God who takes delight in torturing people for all eternity, but is rather the experience of an evil soul who experiences the all-consuming energies of God.
I quote a key passage from Alexander Kalomiros’ “The River of Fire,” which explains this much better than I could:
from http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm. Hope this gives a different look at the subject than the traditional arguments for / against hell.
A bit of a hijack, but as far as the question of the existence of God is concerned, this little snippet from Calvin and Hobbes will turn anyone into a believer.
Hobbes: Do you think there’s a god?
Calvin: Well somebody’s out to get me.
First of all, the worst thing about this whole business is not fault of our own. It’s Original Sin. Even if we live like a saint, we are still sinners. Why should we be held responsible for something we didn’t do? It’s so absolutely uncivilised.
Secondly, sin is not the same as crimes. Apparently, not believing in Him is a sin.
Thirdly, there is no redemption, not for not believing, anyway. Once you are in Hell, there’s no getting out. At least that’s the way the bible puts it.
The answer to the OP is no. There is nothing that anyone can do that would merit eternal torture and the idea is especially absurd when conceived as vengence for petty offenses or for simply not being a Christian. It is irreconcilable with a God who is good. Hell is a sick human fantasy only.
THUD
That was the sound of a sad little joke falling flat on it’s face.
You know, the bible uses the same phrases (flame that is not quenched, etc) for other things that clearly ended, such as the destruction of cities.
Which is not surprising, since a flame that is not quenched still burns out after it burns everything.
It is an incorrect translation to take the bible as saying there is such a thing as eternal punishment.